Goldman and West to propose school uniform policy

Jennifer C., I don’t have a problem with choosing a school that mandates uniforms, however, I do take issue with not having a choice at all. Here is something my 10 year old wrote and asked me to post:

“I think that all of the children should take a vote about the uniforms. After all, we’re the ones who have to wear them. I personally like casual dress. The way you dress is a way to express yourself. It’s interesting to see if someone is a tomboy, really girly, gothic, or a hippy by how they dress. But with uniforms everyone looks the same. And in school you don’t get a lot of time to talk and get to know each other, because you’re busy studying.”

“…and call for a badly needed citywide School Uniform policy….”

I can’t help but ask this of Goldman and West…have either of you actually spent anytime inside a classroom at Bellevue?

What schools have you spent time in that indicates uniforms are “badly needed?” Mary Munford? Chimborazo? Open High? Armstong? I’m curious.

I suspect they’re addressing the poverty/social aspect of the uniforms rather than any potential behavior modifications they could produce.

WHOA. I wasn’t aware that I had to pat your daughter on the virtual head before I could express my adult/parental/taxpayer opinion.
I read what she posted and think it’s great that she wrote out her thoughts, and I would have concurred completely when I was ten. Now I’m thirty-seven and my viewpoints have changed, which is why I asked you if you want your children to interact with other kids because of how they’re dressed.
I don’t expect fourth-graders to understand all the social and financial aspects of the decision, and until they start buying their own clothes I don’t think they should get a vote.
As for my family, I have two children, one of whom will begin pre-K this fall. The other one is two years behind him.

“…do I need to wait until I’ve had a kid kicked out of RPS to say anything?” Why did you say that?

Jennifer my concern of choice is for those who cannot afford private school and must use RPS.

Regarding your question “I asked you if you want your children to interact with other kids because of how they’re dressed”: This isn’t a concern because my children have friends who are poor to wealthy, black and white, and of different cultural and religious back grounds. They are not choosing their friends based on dress. My child’s opinion was based on the question of uniforms.

“do I need to wait until I’ve had a kid kicked out of RPS to say anything?”

Below-the-belt, bad sportsmanship.

Getting so ugly kind of blew your otherwise-decent points for me. Just thought I’d virtual let ya know.

Uniforms would certainly help us cash-strapped working moms, especially those of us with more than one child in school. Buying school supplies is hard enough, the back-to-school wardrobe can just about break the bank.

Another plus I see is the it would be easier to eliminate the wearing or imitating of “gang colors”.

Good points nadine. Maybe parents should vote whether or not to have uniforms at their particular school.

“Poor form indeed. Attacking a child is gross.”

Yeppers. And that’s what I’m saying. Twisting a vulnerable and painful situation, in a public forum, in order to discredit a parent’s argument, simply because there is a difference of opinion, is pretty cruel.

Couldn’t see it happening without calling it out, that’s all.

Okey doke. First off, I wasn’t referring to Gray’s kids – as far as I knew, her daughter is at Bellevue and is doing fine. I know she’s been involved with a lot of discussions about problems experienced with administrators at other schools, but I’m not “twisting” anything. My impression of their kids being pulled out of Cary was that they’d been pulled out. You’re being oversensitive. Incidentally, Shannon, did you have anything to say about uniforms or were you just being the Internet Police?
Now, I have some other comments.
Gray said,

Now I have to ask you, do you have children in RPS? If not, where do you plan on sending them?

No, you didn’t “have to ask.” The only reason you asked was so that you could determine if I am qualified to have an opinion. Please explain any other reason for asking that question. I used the “kicked-out” thing as an extreme example of What Can Go Wrong, since I wasn’t sure what level of experience with RPS would be “enough.”

This isn’t a concern because my children have friends who are poor to wealthy, black and white, and of different cultural and religious back grounds. They are not choosing their friends based on dress. My child’s opinion was based on the question of uniforms.

…which will allow her

to see if someone is a tomboy, really girly, gothic, or a hippy by how they dress.

Which is sort of my point.

I’m not trying to attack Gray, I’m just trying to point out some inconsistencies. I really don’t care if my kids have to wear uniforms except for the thoroughly selfish reason of not having to think in the mornings. They have two older cousins who will supply them with clothes for the rest of their minority, so my clothing budget is pretty minimal. A uniform policy would certainly be nice for those who are older-cousinless, though.

Just being the internet police. Making citizen’s arrests, that sort of thing. It’s too hot to play outside. Plus, all this heat makes me really oversensitive.

Not sure what you were referring to when you were talking about kids getting kicked out of school, then. Would love to understand why that was worked in there if it wasn’t a dig. The backpaddling was pretty weak in post 24.

And sure – I’m a mom, and I might have an opinion. But this is not really my flavor of debate. I’d much rather be relaxed than right, especially since I can see the value in both viewpoints.

When I was growing up there was always a huge problem where kids were tormented if they couldn’t afford the latest shoes or name-brand clothing. I think having uniforms would help eliminate some distractions.

I don’t know if a uniform is completely necessary but even having a dress code that says they have to wear slacks and a button-up shirt could help.

It reminds me of something the actor Aston Kutcher once said. He wears a suit coming to the set every day because it reminds him that he is there to WORK.

I think people under-estimate the creativity of kids. They will find little ways to express themselves. Hair, backpacks, jewelry, etc. And kids can wear whatever they want once they are out of school.

I think school uniforms are a good idea, but they are not a cure all, especially considering the social disaster that constitutes home life for so many urban children.

There is a reason that immigrant children exceed their peer, whether in the suburbs or the city. They have a strong family life that values and pursues education. Goldman and West are not the only ones who care about education or children.

Jennifer,

After a small discussion on uniforms, my daughter asked if she could write up her opinion and post it. In the moment it seemed like a good exercise and she was so excited. By the way, she also has a pro uniform arguement too –she called it an “equalizer.” She couldn’t wait to see a response then she read your first post #5. She frowned and responded, “She’s not very nice,” then she turned her back to the computer. I agreed and comforted her. I didn’t allow her to see anymore. It was a big mistake to post her comment on a blog –I’ve learned my lesson. Next time I’ll encourage her to write to the letters to the editor of the TD or Style or go before School Board like countless other children where they are applauded for their writing or public speaking ability and courage.

Jennifer C., I know you are a huge supporter of the charter and I think that is good. But just because I disagree with one aspect of the charter, i.e. uniforms, being implemented in the regular RPS does not mean I’m against the charter. I’m considering entering my youngest in the lottery if RPS is unable to challenge her and have recommended folk here in the east end to apply.

Jennifer, I want you to know that my question you didn’t like came after my daughter’s hurt look.

I don’t expect people to let their kids read weblogs, and I’m sorry her feelings were hurt. However, I didn’t denigrate what she wrote – I simply didn’t acknowledge it because I thought I was talking to adults, and a ten-year-old’s opinion is not germane to the discussion. If you had specified that she would be reading responses, I might have done some cheerleading.
Also, I don’t think you’re against the charter. I think you’re for getting the very best education for your kids and as many other kids as possible. I just get a bit bristly at the way you put things sometimes.

Here is a little something from the ACLU http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/29021res19991104.html .

I’m still not sold on uniforms, however, I am comforted just a tiny bit by John Murden’s post #20: “The new proposal makes having uniforms the default, and would require parental organization to opt out of.”

Before saying yes to uniforms, everyone should be well informed of the arguments on all sides.

If our school system was more trust worthy and if our nation wasn’t under the patriot act and the bubble standardized tests, I might not be so pessimistic regarding uniforms. Everyone must remember that it is our constitutional right to choose the dress of our own children and that, yes, children too have the right to freedom of expression.

I remember well rebelling against my school uniform but I didn’t have a choice because I was in private school.

A stricter dress code would make more sense.

Jennifer, “I get a bit bristly at the way you put things sometimes too.”

Gray, you know I completely respect your views and opinions, but it is much more difficult to enforce “dress code” than it is to have uniforms. I’m not completely sold on uniforms either, but our adm staff with the schools shouldn’t have to spend time administering the dress code. A uniformed dress code would be could be more time efficient and in the long run benefit the kids.

I now you and you turned out pretty darn good and you wore uniforms. So why not?

Once again I state, there are alot of things that need improvement in our schools and the on going saying is “there is always something bigger or more important” and still nothing happens. This is RPS mantra. This has kept RPS at a status quo which I can’t allow for my kids or any others.

And it seems to me that on this blog everyone is thinking of the big picture not just their “own” such as myself.

I’m not negating your opinion, I just think this isn’t the biggest deal we are looking at. RPS is famous for “distractiing” parents with samller issues, lets not allow this. So my kids wear a uniform, big deal. Let’s make sure their teachers are qualified and able to teach to all childresn etc…

I always appeciate those who look at issues that aren’t important to me. Sometimes it is just a little tough to understand why. I tend to look more at the big picture.

Kudos Crystal. As a parent, I feel my kids have a little say so but I am the parent, at least til they turn 18 which gives me a little time. I’m all for empowering them but I must decide what’s right. And once again I say, why not? I’m not for or against uniforms, it just isn’t the fish I need to fry.

From personal experience, especially at the high school level, the uniform was not an equalizer. Everyone knew who the tomboys, pretty girls, popular kids, rich and poor kids, outcasts, and even who the punk, preppy, and hippy kids were.

Uniforms also won’t be able to mask that RPS is separate and unequal. Making a good education available in all districts would put all kids on more of an equal footing.

And it did upset me to see Goldman and West(and I like both of them) standing before Bellevue talking about uniforms instead of this very school being on a chopping block for years. I believe it has had a huge psychological effect on the school. A school without a future is a school not worth building upon. Downtown is unwilling to fix it, make it ADA compliant, and even our district rep. West found it unsuitable for his kids. Would uniforms change his mind? I don’t think so. I say implement programs, etc. that would entice West to send his kids to RPS.

It seems parents forget (in getting caught up in the “free speech” deal) the end of the story. What is best for children at a young age? To have respect for authority, to study hard and achieve, to get along with others.

I am of the opinion based on visits and observations of RPS and my two children who attended public schools and are now out in the workforce, uniforms in early school years are a good thing.

Too many parents raise their children as little adults with what they want taking precedence over what is best for them. In the long run, this does not help in the workforce but can actually hinder advancement.

The world doesn’t revolve around little Suzy or little Tom. Best for them to not be distracted in early years but to get on with the business of learning and respect for authority and others.

And to your point, Miss Teacher, my mother was a cafeteria manager for 30 years (retired last year) in Chesterfield and was always amazed at the expensive clothes the free lunch kids wore and the luxury cars the parents drove. Not to say kids should be downtrodden and look dirty for reduced lunch, but again respect is lacking.

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/29021res19991104.html .

I’m very serious about not accepting government mandated uniforms. It might seem insignificant to some but I was raised that you do not sign away your constitutional rights and dressing yourself and kids the way you want(w/in reason at school of course) is a right protected under the U.S. constitution. It scares me when people easily write off their rights like it’s no big deal. Every constitional right, big and small, chipped away is dangersous. Look how many people rolled over as Bush signed the patriot act? They thought “no big deal… who cares if the government wire taps me because I know I’m a law abiding citizen.” Rememer when speaking out against the invasion of Iraq you were labeled unpatriotic? Remember the quiet college campus as we attacked Iraq? I wish their parents had gotten “caught up in the free speech deal” just a wee bit.

Miss Teacher, Thank you for your observations. Dress has not been a problem at my children’s RPS school either and has not taken away from their studies. And now I know that at a public “uniform school,” students continue to wear what they want.

I like Goldman but between the Cary St. mall stuff and this uniform thing it is reminding me of a Gilmore ploy to gain votes and a Bush distraction tactic –Gilmore and his “no car tax” and Bush telling us to shop while he signed away our rights. I’m ready for Goldman to talk about his great ideas and plans because right now, he is scaring me. Calling Goldman the “Education Mayor” is eerily reminiscent of Bush’s label on himself.

(Maybe I don’t like Goldman, I just like Don’s writing against his opponents on the SaveRichmond blog –he writes with crushing wit.)

Now I am torn… i hate this idea but I have my long stating rule of always going against whatever the ACLU is for…

mike, Here is a paragraph from the ACLU link: “In December 1965, Mary Beth Tinker, John Tinker and Chris Eckhardt, three teenagers from Des Moines, Iowa, were suspended for going to school wearing black arm bands to protest the war in Vietnam. Represented by the ACLU, the students and their families embarked on a four-year court battle that culminated in the landmark Supreme Court decision: Tinker v. Des Moines. In Tinker, the Court ruled that students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”

So mike are you “always going against whatever the ACLU is for…”

And for all those against kids having freedom of speech, would that include children being banned from freedom of religious expression in school? Should they take off their crosses, veils, star of davids? Remember we have separation of Church and State (thank goodness) but that does not mean students “shed” their constitutional rights of freedom of speech and expression in the school.

Oh…you never know on this blog or in this country…after all Bush was appointed President two terms in a row and the second time he claimed he had a mandate from the people.

Thanks Nadine.

If you had a job that required a uniform, you would wear it. If the school requires a uniform, your child will wear it. As for the schools that require one but don’t enforce it…Shame on them and shame on the parents! My children are required to wear uniforms, and I darn sure make sure they are in it when they walk into that school.
Do my kids love wearing uniforms? No. Does it teach them a valuable lesson about rules and regulations, as well as the consequences for not following society’s (the school) rules? Yes. They have ample opportunity to change their clothes after school and on weekends and wear (almost!) whatever their hearts desire.

Guilty Mom, Like you, if I chose a school that mandated uniforms, I would enforce it but I’m opposed to Government mandating uniforms. Even Russia, who experiemented with equalizing the people, abolished school uniforms in 1992.

What an interesting discussion this has turned into! I’ve never posted here before- but wanted to throw in my observations & opinions.

I’ve been an educator at a Museum in Richmond for many years and have seen classes from most RPS elementary schools (as well as the surrounding area)- where I work as well as on school grounds. Having the chance to see more individual classes than any mayoral canidate or school board member likely has, I’ve come up with my own conclusions about this matter. Since I typically only spend half an hour with each class, I only get first impressions on the behaviors (respect for teachers, students, manners, etc) of students. My coworkers and I have noticed that RPS students in uniforms are usually well behaved. Not to say that ununiformed children never behave well, but when a group on students in uniforms walk in the door, we rarely have behavioral problems with them. I know this is not uniforms/dress code alone- parents and teachers play the major role here.

To reference post 28- Maybe the kids realize that it is school time, not play time. (really? did I agree with Ashton Kutcher?? 🙂 I know I would have been felt different as a child if I had to wear a uniform. I also would have spent less time, tears, and fights with my mom if I had been forsed to do so. Lastly, despite the trends we all experienced in the past, to me there seem to be way more kids today that dress beyond their years. I am often distracted (from shock) when I encounter kids in my classroom, or out in public, that are in clothes that you might see Britney Spears wear on a tabloid cover. Let kids dress as kids!

john is correct and also consider most if not all private schools do have dress and proper behavior codes/standards.

Nadine, Government mandating uniforms is unconstitutional, therefore, I oppose enforcing them in public schools. Now would I choose a school with uniforms, yes if I liked the educational programs there but so far my favorite private schools do not have them.

Bud, I agree with dress and proper behavior codes/standards and RPS has this already –it is written in the student conduct book. By the way, requiring blazers is not the same as a uniform.

Gray, not trying to be obstinate, but where in the constution is the right of students not to wear uniforms?

While not specifically stated Collegiate gives a list of what is not permitted for boys and girls. If you look it this list what is left is a certain type of dress that can be to some considered a “uniform”. My son wears jeans (not too big and always with a belt) and t-shirts with printed expressions most of the week well at Collegiate he would not be allowed to based on the “dress code”. What’s left? Khaki’s and polos? There are different ways to label things and to me that is a uniform they just didn’t state they had to be Khaki is color or the shirt be white. For me teachers are not exempt from this. The teachers should be appropriately dressed but again who’s definition of appropriate are we talking about. A teacher can state” it’s my right to have freedom of expression?”. But it’s also my right as a parent to not have my child exposed to your back side because you choose to but on pants that are too low or panties that are too revealing. See we get into a slippery slope here with whats appropriate and what’s not appropriate. There is a dress code for teachers as well but again not being enforced because it’s not specific. The list I read for Collegiate spelled it out clearly and I don’t think a parent who is willing to pay 12K plus has a problem following it.

Get Real, the “jailhouse look” is exactly my concern. It’s no some much that I don’t like the saggy britches as much as I disapprove of the persona the kids are trying to imitate. Believe me, they might think it’s freedom of expression, but it’s my job as a parent to discourage the adoption of a gangster persona.

The gangster lifestyle is idolized among many young people (just look at the Bebo pages for members of the Church Hill Boyz). Those kids (and they are kids) really think that making money and owning guns is what it is all about. And, they all want to look the part. Maybe kids playing adult games, but for many of these kids, the game became too real.

I really don’t want my kids to think that’s cool and I do my best to discourage it.

Like I said, a uniform would really level out the playing field. There would be less peer pressure to wear clothes that glorify that lifestyle.

Agreed Carletta. Except, my son included, a lot of these young kids ARE trying to look like they are “gangsters”. And, as he gets older and more independent, I can only hope the lessons I tried to instill in him will resonate louder than the pressure of fitting in.

James, I agree.

The problem is the enforcement of the dress code. Maybe if we didn’t have teachers being forced to “teach to the test,” they would be able to focus on the ways to inspire young people to dress for success. Teaching our young people how to dress and appear in public strikes me as an important career counseling issue.

I’m mad that no one downtown is doing anything to make east end schools people’s first choice and uniforms are not going to change a damn thing from what I’ve seen in the poor RPS. I say give us high quality teachers and good leaders that are able to keep teachers from fleeing, give us advance language art books, stop teaching to the damn tests, give the many bright students something more, do something about the outrageously high suspension rates at the elementary level, renovate our schools and build a “badly” needed new one. Woodville elementary is busting at the seams with over 600 students and has a shortage of staff and at the same time they have Bellevue elementary on a chopping block. Proposing uniforms won’t trick me.

Is this Goldman’s way of winning votes? Goldman and West, please tell all of us what prompted you two to think of uniforms first? And West would uniforms entice you to enroll your children in the east end schools?

john m:

just checked in this thread and got teo Trojan alerts from MacAfee. Sounds implausible but jst wanted to point it out, just in case.

“Is this Goldman’s way of winning votes? Goldman and West, please tell all of us what prompted you two to think of uniforms first?”

That’s what I’m saying. It strikes me as kind of a “hey! look over there!” move.

I’ve been feeling a bit like the last to be picked for the team, over here – asking the same question over and over again. I appreciate someone else asking it, too.

PS – AVG is flagging this page on my machine, also. Started this morning. Thought it might be a sign about this thread, and that I should go back to talking about the goats.

thanks jennifer c. I suspect someone must have inadvertently planted it via a link.

Mr. Goldman said “I happen to believe School Uniforms can help address certain issues of importance in our educational system.”

And I ask – like what?

I like it that Goldman wants to have Richmond women honored for their achievements.

Surely, those dead white guys lining Monument Avenue (a/k/a “Losers Row”)can make room for some women — of all persuasions.

GetReal #91, I like the idea of honoring a woman and I think it should be Elizabeth Van Lew, however, Goldman like most of the other mayoral candidates did not answer the question regarding the “Davis” statue at Tredagar. Here is the article http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/tuesday.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-01-0040.html .

Ruth,

Oy gevalt to you … I appreciate Gray’s concerns and desire to make this world a better place. If you have an opinion — then post it. Nobody’s stopping you. But, don’t fault Gray because you have nothing substantive to say.

I spent all my childhood in Catholic schools with uniforms and strict dresscode enforcement. Let me be clear, a uniform is not the cure for socio-economic problems by itself. But a dresscode/uniform does instill a sense of respect and seriousness about how you present yourself to the public. If you look like a slob and are completely unfocused, how can you/others possibly take you seriosuly? To be clear, I am not a proponent of authoritarion polices. I do think a minimum level of decency, however, would raise the bar for our kids and what they think of themeselves from a self esteem stand point. If kids benefit, I am all for it. That’s the name of the game. I say give it a shot. What do we have to lose? We already have one of the worst school systems known to mankind. Taking a chance on a change seems like exactly what we need.

“bigger private schools” is what the dolt meant to say.

Ruth, I figure you probably don’t have kids. Or, if you do, you send them to private schools, where they wear uniforms and don’t have friends of varied cultural and economic backgrounds. Plus, you’re a big meanie.

I really need to go cull my kids’ crap while they’re not here to notice. See you guys later 🙂

They’re going to manufacture coal in Wise County?

Yep …. Robert F. Kennedy. Passionate about kids, all kids. Passionate about Civil Rights and making this nation live up to the promise embedded in the Declaration of Independence that all men (including women and children)are created equal.

And, my dear, if you think Gray has too much time on her hands, what does that say about you considering that you are sitting around taking the time to read her postings, eh?

Until you have something positive to say, I suggest you refrain from the ad hominem attacks. Jennifer C. is right — you are acting like a big meanie.

I suggest you get over yourself.

Hey Jennifer, go here http://riverdistrictnews.com/2008/06/30/protestors-arrested-at-dominion-virginia-power-offices/ . I’m not an environmentalist, but from recent news and Hansen’s report to congress, it is imperative that we get rid of coal burning plants because they give off the most CO2 and he said that we have ten years to clean up our act.

Ruth:

Have you ever posted anything that was actually contributing to any thread on this site?

What’s with the mean, snide remarks? You call people horrible names, you say terrible things about your neighbors and you seem to hate just about everything.

What gives?

And by the way, you’re no day in the park to live near either, but thanks for finally painting your shit brown, peeling house a fairly decent color after years and years of neglect.

Ruth:

Have you ever posted anything that was actually contributing to any thread on this site?

What’s with the mean, snide remarks? You call people horrible names, you say terrible things about your neighbors and you seem to hate just about everything.

What gives?

And by the way, you’re no day in the park to live near either, but thanks for finally painting your shit brown, peeling house a fairly decent color after years and years of neglect.

That’s great to know about MLK. Definitely. I think that reflects a lot about the progressiveness of that school. Really, I have heard a lot of great things about MLK.

It’s not the STUDY time that I’m really talking about, though. It’s the free time, at an awkward age, where I would rather my kid be working on learning who he is instead of getting distracted too much by us fairer counterparts. I know that we can be quite distracting! 🙂

But that’s just me, personally, and what I have found to work best for us. Didn’t mean to open a can of worms.

Oops! Sorry Hillkid. I hadn’t seen your question when I was typing 45. I was not trying to thwart discussion – just apologizing for thread-jacking.

Are you sure about gender separate classes at MLK? I know that Henderson Middle has them, but this is news that MLK has them as well.

You might double-check that. I know quite a few people at MLK and no one has ever mentioned this. Hmmmmm …..

I know the PTA president at MLK had to fight like hell to get a Spanish teacher assigned for the 8th-graders. She contacted her School Board member (Chandra Smith)and got nowhere. Fortunately, she contacted another school board member and asked for her help. Wanna guess which SB member delivered?

John, I just went back up and re-read your post on MLK ….. Sounds like you know what you’re talking about. BRAVO!Do you teach there? If MLK is using single gender class assignments and Henderson is, too, then I think there might be more than enough information to inspire the SB to go bigger into the single gender middle school assignments. Wouldn’t that be wonderfully progressive?

Thanks for the info john_m. Sounds like a good direction at MLK. Middle school is a crucial academic period for many young people, setting the stage for future academic performance. The ragin’ ‘mones can really distract from that, yet with the same gender classes and mixed gender lunchtime, hall time, etc. etc, maybe the best of both worlds for that vulnerable time.

Gray:

“mike, Here is a paragraph from the ACLU link:”

How many links would you like me to send you where they are trying to protect sex offenders, criminals, terrorists all while attacking religions?

Don’t get me wrong.. I hate the uniform idea. It would be a waste of money and manpower with no measureable effect..if any.

Posted by nadine at July 1, 2008 2:02 pm :

“Gray, not trying to be obstinate, but where in the constution is the right of students not to wear uniforms?”

It’s in the 1st and 14th Amendments.

The Supreme Court, in a landmark decision, ruled that students do not “shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate” (Tinker v. Des Moines). The Court also declared that “state-sponsored schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism.”

In an eloquent passage, the Court wrote: “That [public schools] are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms . . . if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes.”

Disruptive expression and fashion was also addressed. The Court determined that schools have the ability to regulate excessive fashion behavior under current law. Schools can limit students’ speech or expression only when necessary to avoid a “substantial disruption of or material interference with” the educational process.

So a student wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit or displaying gang colors can be disciplined under existing law. Imposing more restrictions on student expression is oppressive, illegal, and unnecessary.

Due to the post-Columbine backlash, we have seen many policies that are turning schools into fortresses and students into prisoners. Schools have instituted strict speech codes, dress codes, random searches, surveillance cameras, mandatory uniforms, seizure of private papers, snitch lines, and a zero tolerance for just about everything. Students’ rights are quickly disappearing. As one columnist wrote: “High school kids . . . are getting pretty short on liberties, except the right to remain silent.”

Posted by Shannon at July 1, 2008 10:52 am :
“I ask again – why now?
What is the supposed problem that this proposal is designed to eliminate? Has anyone on the proposal side stated any reasoning behind this?”

Why now? Because it’s almost election time. School uniforms is one of those hot-button, feel-good issues that keeps coming back again, like flag burning and same-sex marriage. It’s simplistic, easy to understand, and doesn’t cost much. As Yogi Berra says, “It’s deja vu all over again.”

The reasoning? Parental convenience, clothes reduce crime, and students don’t feel inferior when they all look the same. We should also make them wear masks so the ugly kids can be equal.

The real reason is uniforms are a quick fix for a deeper problem. We should be discussing effective measures such as violence prevention courses, closer links between schools and local law enforcement agencies, smaller classes, better facilities, and tighter school security. But these things cost money, and nobody wants to pay for it.

Posted by Paul Goldman at July 2, 2008 12:23 am:

“So despite what has been written here, the policy I have proposed is perfectly legal and constitutional.”

See above.

I read your website and blog, as you suggested, and found only a fleeting reference to “Dressing for Success” as an argument for school uniforms.

Dressing for success? There is something creepy about training first graders for the business world. As a general objection, I don’t want anybody – especially the government – to tell me how to dress my kid. May I suggest that you drop the mandatory school uniforms issue from your campaign?

Bridg Allen

Not to inject anything too off topic, but there is a RPS communication forum coming up this week. It would be nice if these topics could be debated in a even wider circle
“Come assist us this summer in establishing the communication efforts needed to keep you informed about your child’s progress and the system at large.”
Forum Dates: July 10 and July 17th at 6pm in the Richmond Technical Center (South Building).

“For all the nay sayers re: uniforms”

I am a nay sayer specifically because of the cost.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/cleveland_schools_need_1_milli.html

Mike, I checked out that article where Cleveland schools need $1 million sponsor for uniforms…you know for that amount, we could have Accelerated Reader in all Richmond Public Schools with some left over cash.

Let’s see…uniforms or an exciting program that has kids moving up the ladder of advanced literature reading?

Justify your reasoning, Keith, with clear indication as to the “problems” that are to be addressed by the change. State the dilemma, not the goal. Answer the question as asked. Neither you nor Mr. Goldman seem to be willing (or able) to do that, despite several requests. Enlighten us.

I don’t think that it is the “whisper of reform” so much that is bringing opposition. In fact, the word “reform” indicates that there is a condition that needs to be rectified. Neither one of you has articulated that condition in the least. The “whisper of reform” causing backlash? Pretty arrogant statement, with all due respect, considering that he “reformers” seem to be adamantly refusing to answer the question at hand. Tell us, White Knight -From what horrors are you saving us? We can handle it.

State the current unacceptable aspects of the students’ dress at RPS, Keith. What are you trying to Reform? Come on, now. Seriously.

I’m getting pretty baffled as to why that seems to be so diffcult. It’s almost like a joke at this point. Is anyone else laughing? Because this kind of thing is what burns people out on the whole concept of being involved in politics. Are you and Mr. Goldman aware of that at all?

Might be something to consider if either one of you is truly interested in continuing to “serve the public.”

Keith, If uniforms won’t entice you to enroll your kids into RPS, how would it draw in others? Are other people more easily fooled?

What proposal would raise educational standards in RPS to an acceptable level for you and your family? Because that is the one that I want.

After reading all the comments to date concerning school uniforms, I thought it might be useful for me to put the issue in the broader context of my Education platform.

In my view, based on all the studies, the best direct correlation regarding a child’s improved educational performance is increased parental involvement: that is to say, the more interest his or her parents show in that child’s educational perforance, the better the performance.

Indeed, I just had a meeting with one of the top educators in Richmond to discuss a new idea that I am developing aimed at trying a new approach on the subject of parental involvement.

I hope to have a press release on this idea in the very near future.

Which brings me to the school uniform discussion. In my view, a school uniform policy sends a clear message to our children: namely, that we, the adults, the parents, care about them doing the best they can do in educating themselves, that school is for learning, and that anything that distracts them from getting the most out of school is something we will not permit.

To repeat: A school uniform policy is a statement from the adults, from the parents, of a community, that we care, that we know it is our job to engender in our children the appreciation for the importance of an education.

A mind, as the famous saying goes, is a terrible thing to waste. In my view, and that of many experts in the field, we need to convince our children to be more interested in terms of how well they do in school relative to their classmates on the subject of educational performance: and less concerned, at least while in school, as regards who has the trendiest sneakers, the most expensive jewelery, the coolest clothes.

The record is clear as to which majoral candidate has been the strongest leader in the fight to improve education in our town. All my opponents praise my City of the Future plan, which was the first one ever enacted by City Council in the city’s history to lay out a plan to begin modernizing what are the oldest city schools in the state. They say it’s implementation is crucial to the future of our city.

I say: If that is the case, who better to do it than the person who put in the time and effort to develop the plan?

My 12 point “Success for Life” education plan remains the most comprehensive yet issued by any of my opponents.

I have proposed a new incentive plan, the “Live-in Richmond” homeownership initiative to attract the best young new teachers to the RPS and to keep our top educators here in Richmond also.

In the course of this campaign, my goal is to lay out other ideas on how to bring real change. One of those will be to redo how the RPS reports key statistics, since a recent national study said the RPS inflates graduation rates, a problem that is shared by school systems across Virginia and the country unfortunately.

One of the reasons I worked so hard to help give Richmonders the right to elect their Mayor – permit me to point out that I am the only one running for Mayor who took the leadership to do the grunt work to make it happen, although admittedly since I wrote the Elected Mayor law, there was perhaps a bigger interest in my so doing and I acknowledge that – is because it is my view that Richmond has for too long been a top-down city and so we need to open things up to new people and new ideas.

Such thinking, sadly, remains controversial in our town, as those familar with the 2003 referendum campaign know from some of the comments made by the oppoents. It is also clear that the old power-brokers who controlled, or at least overly influenced, the failed system of an appointed Mayor government now want to regain control over who becomes Mayor in 2008.

I oppose such a return to power-broker control which is why I am the only candidate who isn’t supported by any of the old power-brokers.

My campaign is thus aimed at being an independent voice for the public interest. In that regard, I believe I owe you a campaign based on specific plans and ideas, not just politics as usual.

And in that connection, Education is a key for me: and my campaign has tried to present a vision and also details.

If we don’t improve the parential involvement equation, then we have missed the best single tool of educational success in the educational toolbox.

Unfortunately, there is no magic formula, no easy fix.

So that is why I appreciate all the comments, pro and con, on school uniforms and the other issues discussed on this blog.

I am not afraid of discussion, or criticism. Ideas need to be challenged, and reviewed, for that is how they get improved.

At the same time, a leader has to be willing to act, and no one being perfect, then a leader his to be like FDR: you can not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

It is important for the school children of Richmond to know that their parents, that the adults who are suppose to be in charge of Richmond, want them to succeed in school.

In my view, a citywide school uniform policy – or a strict dress code if you prefer – sends that message, it tells the children that school is for one thing: educating their minds because that is the greatest gift, after making sure they are safe from the predators among us, the adult generation can give to the younger generation.

School uniforms are not the be all and end all. But if properly done, it can play an important role and while any such policy is of course ultimately up to the School Board, a candidate for Mayor owes you the courtesy of discussing his values and vision, key components to any leadership agenda.

“The Constitutional rights of students outweigh any perceived benefits of dress codes, in my opinion. How can we deny students their legal rights in school and then expect them to honor the Constitution as adult citizens?”

Now I am against the uniform policy based soley on fiscal reasons. The above argument in several different forms has been used. This is actually a very weak argument against school uniforms. The sole case heard by the supreme court (Tinker v Des Moines) referenced by Grey above, has been used more sucessfully FOR school dress codes versus against. That ruling did allow the black arm bands that was the basis of the suit but did provide language providing for school dress codes and uniforms. The ruling specifically states that the arm bands were allowable because the case “did not relate to regulation of the length of skirts or the type of clothing, to hair style or deportment.”

This has been challenged many times in appellate court with the dress code/uniform policies usually staying in place with some minor adjustments….

Now… being a complete waste of time and money that is a different story…

“There are many teachers who cannot write grammatical English…

***School property and vehicles is dirty and poorly maintainted.”

Ouch.

I cannot believe this issue has so many people so worked up. I think uniforms are a positive, but I can live without them. I do not believe my children will be damaged by wearing them. Anyone that thinks that is truly lost in space.

Honestly, don’t we have more important things to spend 144 comments on, such as gang violence?

Most RPS employees are competent and caring individuals who are trying to make difference. Some are not.

As for West, I simply do not support him or his stances. He was a terrible representive. But, I am pretty sure the sentence with the poor verb agreement was merely a typo, so come on.

We are all well-aware of your views, Gray. I am so aware that I never really read past the second paragraph anymore.

As always, I ask that we look at the situation a little bit less hysterically.

My personal experience with school uniforms is great. My daughter wears a uniform to school and it really makes mornings easy for us. She knows what she is wearing every day and we don’t have disagreements on what’s appropriate to wear to school. She has definitely NOT lost any individuality or personal expression by wearing a uniform. It saves me a lot of money in school clothes, also.

I’ve got to stick up for Gray here–
I do not agree with her position, but she is passionate and vocal for her children. I may not agree with what she’s saying, but I like that she won’t shut the heck up! More parents should be just as “hysterical” when it comes to their children and their education.

Thanks Guilty Mom.

edg, have you seen any of George Carlin’s bits on public education? He gives a far more scathing review of it than anyone on this thread.

I’m not against choosing a school with uniforms, I’m against government mandating uniforms.

Mike, From my experience, I have found that the students are not bad.

Re RPS corruption: Much has been pointed out on various threads. And administration can’t blame parents on the scathing audit report, missing money, no ramps for the disabled, prayers in school, untrained teachers, no books, poorly written tests, inept leaders giving positions to their inept unqualified friends, etc.

To have healthy public schools we need both a qualified and honest administration and parent/community support.

“Our leaders are not performing well –let’s stick them in uniforms!” BRAVO!

And Edg – let’s get real with the usage of the word “hysterical” shall we? If you can’t fit in a meeting about your own kid’s education, might I suggest that you get a bit more hysterical about organizing your time, before you go after someone else, eh?

Typos and careless mistakes, coming from those who would like to have some control in my family’s life, are simply unacceptable. It’s easy to write in a word doc, if you are not sure about spelling and grammatical usages, and do a check. The point is that, if you are representin’, take the time. Is this not what we are asking of children regarding their style of dress? Take the time to present yourself in a manner that reflects well on you and your family, and thus gives credence to your stance – instilling confidence from others in your value as a person. Show a little self-respect, right? Take the time. If you have a desire to be a public servant, show us why we should endorse you, and hand over our decision-making to you. Why should we have confidence? Neither of these folks has shown me anything but the fact that we are fools if we do. Take the time. If you want to participate in Education, Academia, and discussions surrounding these topics, take the time to be mindful of appearing suitably educated yourself. Seems to me that this should be a given.

Maybe we should put the answers in multiple choice format for them, huh?

We want to investigate the concept of mandated school uniforms at RPS because:

A – Too many midriffs showing
B – The “sagging” look
C – An abundance of Wal-Mart t-shirts with smart alec/disrespectful sayings and slogans plastered across them
D – Skirts are too short
E – Heels are too high
F – Tights are too sexy
G – Earrings are too long
H – Hair is too wild
I – Too much glitter
J – Grills
K – Improper undergarments
L – A, C, and E
M – All of the above…

How is that? If we give you some multiple choice options, similar to the SOL’s, do you, Mr. West and Mr. Goldman, think that you could choose from the potential issues? If we place some reasons in your mouth for the speaking, will you try it? Will you take advantage of what is placed on a silver platter for you, ripe for the taking so that you don’t have to bother yourselves with thought? Or are you still so afraid of appearing politically incorrect that you will refrain.

Be careful, people, as to whom you hand over your power. Do not mindlessly toss away your liberties without thought. This is all I am saying. It is a major, major deal to have someone tell you how to Be, when they can’t tell you why they want you to be that way. I’ll be damned if it is going to happen to me, let alone my kid.

And I, for one, would really LOVE to talk about something else. For example, school lunches are nutritionally horrifying, and the amount of styrofoam that each public school ships to the landfill each day is downright criminal. To me, that is a weighty and worthy topic. And the problem, summed up succinctly, makes it quite simple to address – whether you agree or not. See?

Too bad that Mr. West and Mr. Goldman can’t seem to accomplish the same with the very simple topic of Child Fashion As It Pertains To Public Education. Maybe now that they see how it is done with the lunch concept, as well as have some options to choose from, they will get a little jump start. Then they can begin the process of letting us know how and why they think that they are qualified to give fashion advice.

Having met them both, and at the risk of seeming mean – which I really am not trying to do, they both dress like society-soaked robots. Neither inspire me, at all, to believe that they would propose to place my son in anything but clothing that is equally robotic. And yeah. That is the very definition of stripping away the liberty of self expression.

There is no way that I am going to tell my kid that he has to stand for that in the name of being a “good boy.”

I believe post 146 could use a spell check.

Potty mouths and personal attacks weakens your case and strengthens the concept that uniforms are a start to teaching “respect” of ones self and others.

162: Asking for accountability from folks that would like to be paid with our tax money to represent our “best interest” is not personally attacking. Not in the least. Like in the corporate world, it’s just business. Produce, justify your presence, or move on. It’s truly nothing personal.

Haven’t heard any “potty-mouthing” (grin) here, so I am not too sure where you are going with that, neighbor.

Homogenizing will NEVER teach respect. That is faulty reasoning. Learning that everyone does not have to be exactly like me in order to be worthy of my basic human consideration is what will teach respect. Where is the curriculum for that? I’d love to see it.

Seven Hills spells it out in black and white. I can show it to you, via handbook, strictly enforced policies, and lively, active discussion among the boys. The curriculum for honoring your fellows is clearly spelled out, enforced, and kept in the forefront. And it is effective. I can tell you that from personal experience.

Homogenizing is a band-aid that fails to address the root of the problem – just like those proposing this policy have. And if some people think I am being a mean little girl for continuing to spotlight that fact, that’s the breaks.

Lots of times the truth hurts. I’m sure that England’s feelings were hurt when the US first started asking them to stop trying to control us over here. In fact, there was a big fight. Wow. And then they wrote all about it in books, and made us learn what happened. People are still talking about that argument today, in fact. I guess it proved to be kind of important.

Conflict avoidance has no place in Government. It is weak and fearful, and shows a lack of character. It is the main aspect of “politics” that makes thinking people cringe. Really, Government and Politics should not be interchangeable words. And that is not a personal attack. It’s just my personal belief about those who duck disagreement because it might be a little uncomfortable.

Also, there is a big difference between asking for improvement, and deliberately being hurtful. And if Mr. West and Mr. Goldman can’t answer the tough questions that keep appearing here, not just posed by me, but by a few vocal others, I humbly suggest that they excuse themselves from the big-boy’s ring.

City of Richmond salaries: http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-03-02-0129.html

Mayor Wilder earns well over six figures, $125,000. I would be very surprised if Mr. Goldman decides to oh-so-generously take a pay cut if he is elected to this same office.

Who here makes that much money? Yet, I bet that when someone who is a client, customer, or some other facet of person that your business serves comes in and asks you a question, you are expected to answer it, right?

One hundred twenty five thousand dollars. Add in health benefits, and a myriad of other perks – too many to spend the time brainstorming about here and now… Good job, right? Who wouldn’t like to land that gig?

From what I can see, this whole stunt is just grandstanding at work, and then retreat when the heat got turned up. Put simply, the gentleman does not seem to have thought things through prior to standing in front of an endangered school to smile pretty for the cameras. Oops.

Why should someone who is paid that much of your hard-earned tax money, or is seeking to be paid that much, be allowed to run and pretend it never happened? What happens at your job when you try to put a spin on something, or pass the buck? This doesn’t have to go on forever, but it rightfully SHOULD continue until he takes responsibility, addressing his cavalier throwing out of restriction of freedom. For a potential 125 grand? Please.

This is all I’m saying. We don’t get away with that with our employers, do we? And what was your take-home pay last week?

This period of time, these events, are Mr. Goldman’s job interview for that $125,000 job. We are his potential employers. I’m just asking if you think he is proving himself on this one, pesky little civil-liberties topic.

And these facts about earnings are nothing personal. Just math.

Think back – was making a solid impression at your last interview important to you? Did you think that your employer was mean for asking you to talk about some stuff that he wanted to hear about, particularly when it was stuff that you, yourself, placed on your resume?

Mr. Goldman raised the topic of mandated homogenization as it pertained to our school-children’s dress. He put it on his own resume/agenda as fair fodder. Why should he be under any less pressure than you were, the last time you were in the very same position?

Haven’t we been here before? Shouldn’t we, rightfully, be a bit more gun-shy after the Wilder-School Board fiasco that made us the laughing stock as a city? Shouldn’t we, rightfully, be a bit more pro-active at this point?

I have encouraged Mr. Goldman to do better – respond directly to these issues, rather than use this forum for his own aggrandizement. Maybe he will, if having a successful interview is important to him.

Not mean. Not personal. Just math, and responsible employment practices. That’s all. Because if we fail to conduct a rigorous interview, it’s our fault if we are unhappy with performance, isn’t it?
And we will have nobody to blame but ourselves.

well i pray they put uniforms in all school is easy for the parents and school system

For the record, given some of the back and forth on the blog between various posters, let me say that I have no problem with anything Shannon or anyone else has said or my say in the future about my position on any issue, pro or con, or in between. Or about me personally either if that is what someone may want to say in the future, I think folks on this blog are to be commended to sticking to the issues for the most part, personal comments have no real place in politics in my view.

But whatever a poster wants to say, then fire away, I can handle it.

If you have read the book When Hell Froze Over, discussing among other things my leadership work as the chief cook and bottle washer for an historic effort to change Virginia, my role as the only person in the state willing to do it got me called plenty of names on the record: so you can imagine what they said off the record.

So I have heard it all, for a generation.

So discuss away, fire away, I believe all citizens should have a say in electing their Mayor. Indeed, that is one reason I led the effort to get you the right to elect your Mayor: the other candidates were happy with the old system, where you got no say in the matter, only the power-brokers were consulted in picking the Mayor.

All that being said, however, I do believe that all those posting on this or any site do owe candidates at least this courtesy: recognition of their proven record as a leader, if they have one, in terms of having proven their willingness to work hard to bring real change and making a real difference on tough issues.

I don’t think that simple courtesy is too much ask especially when you have Senators Obama, McCain and Clinton saying that what we did here in Virginia in that fight for historic change inspired them and the country.

That is to say, Paul Goldman isn’t just someone who just talks or writes a blog: I have walked the walked, taking the hits, been called all the names, for daring to be a leader on the front lines making fundamental change.

So for anyone to suggest that somehow I have yet to prove that I have a leadership profile or that I am focusing on small things to avoid having to tackle the bigger issues, that to me is most unfair by any objective analysis.

Compared to all the other candidates running for Mayor, I am the only one who has been willing, year after year, to challenge the power-brokers, the status quo, to empower the average person.

I brought the first successful legal action of it’s kind to force the Democratic Party to change it’s rules, rules that were short-changing the votes of the men and women of Richmond, and many rural parts of the state, again taking on the political establishment.

My efforts to develop the City of the Future Plan, enacted by the City Council and praised by all my opponents, clearly demonstrates that I don’t just talk, that I actually spend the time necessary to develop detailed plans that make a difference: the work being done to fix the parks, libraries and sidewalks in many areas is being done because it was part of my plan.

Style Magazine called me the “The Man who Got Things Done” for my work in fixing potholes, modernizing schools, finding new revenues without raising taxes, and the like.

Even the RTD editorial page, which had some harsh things to say about my strategies to change Virginia in those historic contests in the 1980’s, conceded recently that was the “idea man” in the race and the “most dynamic” of the candidates at their debate.

Another book on national politics – I forgot the name, it was written by Will Saletan, who writes for one of the top websites – credited me with helping to create the strategy that showed how to win the fight for women’s rights in terms of the issue of freedom of choice.

This may not qualify me to be Mayor, or recommend my candidacy to you.

But whether or not you agree with these efforts over the years, or whether you agree with me on a particular issue this year is one thing: this is separate and apart from whether or not I am someone who has proven to be a leader for positive changes to our society.

For example, I see where Shannon said in her post that “Mayor Wilder earns well over six figures, $125,000. I would be very surprised if Mr. Goldman decides to oh-so-generously take a pay cut if he is elected to this same office.”

Despite what Shannon suggests, the fact is I was the first to promise weeks ago to take a 10% pay cut, it was part of a news story, promised at my announcement to get rid of the Mayor’s entourage and drive myself to work, to cut the salaries of the top people at City Hall, I refused a car allowance when I worked for the Mayor, didn’t think it was right, wouldn’t take one as Mayor.

Bottom line: Paul Goldman worked in public housing in Chicago and has since then tried to be a leader for real change, willing to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk, and do the grunt work.

A Difference, for a Change, is my slogan this year.

And for good and proven reason by any objective analysis.

I am a graduate of RPS…k-12. When I was there, it was all about who had the newest, most expensive tennis shoes and the hottest name brands. It was very clear who could “dress” and who couldn’t. John Marshall was known as the “Fashion Show School” because that’s where the best dressed kids were. There was a lot of peer pressure to be the best dressed. Those whose parents couldn’t afford to keep them in the hottest tennis shoes were teased. Maybe things have changed, but I doubt they have.

Mr. Goldman – Thanks for coming here, and reading what some of us have to say. I am genuinely sorry that I missed your statement that you would accept a mere $112,500 to be the Mayor of Richmond. I humbly stand corrected. Still more than most of us make, though, who are forced to be responsive to the people we get paid to serve.

Unfortunately, I saw none of that responsiveness in your second advertisement, either, posted here on CHPN. So very, very disappointing. Upon a little googling, I also noticed others commenting on the same personal aggrandizement on other blogs. Can you hear that? This method of campaigning is not going over well.

About your self-stated achievements: again, when you go for a job interview, and your prospective boss would like to speak about a topic, is it really appropriate to ask him if he is going to tell you how cute you look that day? “Aren’t ya gonna compliment me on my shoes? I did a great job of finding them at a fantastic price!” Would any of us really do that? Ludicrous, right? And so is asking for props, while still dodging a pointed series of questions regarding civil liberty infringement, a topic you – yourself – raised. It’s really kinda, well, lame.

I REALLY want to like you, Mr. Goldman. I thought you were a very pleasant fellow when we met. But the commercials, the speaking-in-the-third-person stuff, (what’s UP with that???) the attempts to elicit compliments for unrelated self-stated achievements, and the dodging of the very topic of this thread – mandated uniforms for students that attend the Richmond public school system, is just killing me. It really and truly is. It’s bizarre, at this point.

If anyone here has traveled – been exposed to other cultures – you know how the forcing-of-all-the-little-people-to-look-alike concept is viewed. Other countries are justifiably terrified of these concepts. Foreigners find this stuff downright frightening in public education. Because it is! Stripping of physical individuality is a method used by people to pave the road to brainwashing. Look alike, think alike, blend in, check out. And whatever ya do, start ‘em young!

We are so used to lazily thinking that our government is going to take care of us, that we are blind to what they see in even very under-educated, third-world countries. And I’ve been there. A lot, and recently, too. I left the U.S. three times last year alone, and had to postpone a fourth trip, around Christmastime, because of being too busy with work. I only state that to qualify myself for those folks who would question my experience with this, the topic of foreign perception.

In my travels, I have learned that we are viewed by other countries as the greatest nation in the world largely because we have these freedoms to choose. Why are we seriously talking about handing them over, especially without a lick of justification or evidence that it would do any good? It’s madness.

And if folks here want to simplify the morning routine with their kids, grab the reigns for goodness sake! You have the absolute right to require your own kids to wear polos and khakis each and every day of the week, if this is the value in your family. You even have the right to make them dress up for dinner, if you want! Whose castle is it? Be a parent! If you are struggling with doing that, please don’t make it the government’s problem, or mine – for that matter. Do you seriously use the argument with your children that “Look! Everybody’s doing it!” to convince them to mind? Is this why you want everyone else to be forced to participate? Do you actually NEED that crutch in your household? I sincerely hope not.

Also, and with all due respect, if your kids are consumed with materialism, it is not the government’s issue, either. It really isn’t. This, too, is a family issue.

My son is not allowed to leave the house with holes in, or stains on his shirt, high-waters, or nasty fingernails. He doesn’t even try anymore, really, because he knows that if I have to repeatedly ask him to make himself presentable, by our family standard, I will make sure he is very uncomfortable. He has learned to pay attention to these things on his own. (Yep, they can learn!) And if he wants to argue, then he must be too young for (insert privilege here.) And those privileges will disappear, one by one, and extremely swiftly. That out of the way, my son and I have an awesome time together – and if you know me in person, you know this is true. We get along great, and he would be the first one to state that as fact. There is, generally, no struggle with this stuff. He is the subordinate, and I’m the mom. And with that out of the way, we are completely free to have lots of fun. Last night I took him to see Steel Pulse at the National, and we had an excellent time. He deserves stuff like that, and I literally learn something new every day from him.

It’s called being an authority figure in your own home. If people can pull that off, they won’t be begging for others to raise their kids – make them listen, and show self respect. It’s really not as hard as it seems. So go for it! Dress your kids in the same thing every day. Who’s stopping you? Just don’t try to make me, or everyone else, do it.

And Clay Street, nobody here is saying that kids’ expression should be unrestrained. I just don’t want Paul Goldman, or you, being the one to restrain them. I’ll go ahead and reserve that right and responsibility for us. It’s my job description, not his – or yours. The big f’n deal is the question of why it is proposed in the first place, and where it stops. It’s a concept yet to be justified by those that brought it to the table. That’s the big f’n deal.

This is particularly true in this case, since the stated value systems of this restraint, (blend in with “cultural norms,” [EEK!] be alike, don’t make waves, fail to take reasonable personal responsibility for yourself without being forced by the system,) are the very value systems that pave the way for Wal-Mart checkers and custodians. Sure, respectable ways to put food on the table. But do you really wish that your son or daughter aspire to this as a career? Do you want this to be their dream job? Because if you do, that’s cool. We are aware, though, that these folks earning potential is maxed out well below $112,500, though, right?

As for my son, I genuinely think that he is capable of something more rewarding, (mentally, spiritually, and financially,) for his life. And the vehicle for reaching those aspirations will not be societally-imposed limits, which should be reserved for prisoners and the criminally insane. (Back to the question – what precisely have these children done wrong to deserve this? What is the problem here that we are trying to address?)

The vehicle for success will be the direct result of SELF discipline, pro-activity, manners, critical thinking skills, effective communication – stuff like that. And he will learn these skills from his family and community, not from city mandates – lowering the bar because there are others who are too, mmm, let’s say “busy”, to spend enough time with their kids and teach them the basics of citizenship and valuing their fellows, as well as themselves.

There is absolutely nobody in this city, or on this forum – particularly the evasive Paul Goldman – that I would trust with that responsibility as it pertains to my son, let alone blindly beckon without thought. That responsibility belongs to me and my clan; and as a U.S. citizen, I gratefully accept it. Like I said, it is the envy of many, many others, worldwide.

Anyway, and strictly speaking for myself, if I wasn’t willing to take on that responsibility, I should not have chosen to have any children in the first place.

Here’s an idea: If you cannot express your point of view in 5 paragraphs or less, please get your own blog and provide us a link.

I love this discussion. And I think it is hilarious to liken me to some kind of management droid. Not much could be further from the truth, in real life. I actually ell-oh-elled that that. (And when did the word “effective” become meaningless? I missed that one…)

Hey – I don’t have to drive five miles. I just have to walk one block – one measley block. I live in Fulton, and there are gunshots here just as much as anywhere else where the crime is active. I’m hardly in my own little world.

I do know that, whatever folks income level is, we all have to eat. We all enjoy being smiled at – seriously, try it! Even the hardest gangster will speak if you say hello, male or female. There is nowhere that I am afraid to drive, in Church Hill or in any other areas of this city with the top off my Jeep and the doors unlocked. I do it every day looking at property, working. Every-single-day, and absolutely everywhere, without exception. Not in my own little world.

Sure, there are folks who need help with their education. And I am waiting for someone to tell me how dressing everyone the same solves that problem. It’s like putting salt in a cake and feeling sorry for yourself when it tastes terrible. Mandating uniforms is not the recipe for inferior education and less than stellar child rearing.

Why hasn’t anyone been able to state why these concepts don’t match? Because they can’t. It is just not the remedy. It’s a silly distraction, and you guys are falling for it, hook line and sinker. Military academies are there for those who need more discipline. Let the folks who earn that consequence suffer it.

In this case, go ahead and shoot the messenger. I’m not concerned with winning the popularity contest here. I rarely care about being right, and generally do not continue on about anything so relentlessly. But this stuff really matters. It’s such a much bigger topic. Sorry if some find it boring, and squirm in their chairs because it takes a few words to express that bigger through-line.

But don’t miss the point while you are pulling that trigger. Do not invite them to dumb you down, people. That’s all I am saying. If you do, it’s your own foolish consequence to suffer.

And it is also the legacy that you leave your kids. Rights surrendered are never, ever offered back willingly by the one you handed your leash to. And that’s a fact, Jack.

So make your choices deliberate.

I don’t fault Goldman for his self promotion –that is what candidates do. Check one of the recent acts coming from the Dwight camp http://floricane.typepad.com/buttermilk/2008/07/richmonds-nex-4.html .

I disagree with Goldman’s uniform policy and I don’t much care for his Carytown mall idea (I would put focus on public transportation first) but I like his stance on Echo Harbor and that the big corporate monied folk aren’t backing him. Goldman is probably the most progressive candidate on the ticket –he seems to be standing outside of the big business and political organizations.

Here I’d like to mention a couple ideas regarding public education that would cost little to nothing:

1) Just like teachers, parents should fill out exit surveys when they decide to leave a particular school or system. On the survey, the parents will be asked why they chose to leave that school. (This idea is not mine, it came from a fellow parent.)

2) This is a policy at Munford, Fox, and Holton that has built these schools up to where they are at today. It is expected that out of zone parents will participate in the school PTA and/or volunteer in the class and school activities. Our neighborhood school is predominately out of zone enrollment and only several people show up to the PTA meetings. These folk are not paying realestate taxes in this neighborhood nor are they helping in the school. And I don’t want to hear the single parent crap because I have friends who are single parents working in their children’s school. For those parents who work during school hours, they can come in on Saturday mornings and help clean up grounds or work on a school directory from the comforts of their own home.

Unqualified RPS employees can’t get away with much with parents watching and the young passionate teachers might decide to stay in our schools if they are well supported.

So edg, you’re saying schools do not need parent participation? You do realize for the second year in a row our school will be losing around 12 teachers again?

Why do you have a problem with me suggesting parents work in their kids’ school?

I did not claim “it is a requirement to attend PTA.” I merely agree with the expectations/policies at Munford, Fox, and Holton. I consider these schools top rate, not “terribly arrogant.”

By the way, you often say, “whatever” to people and that is impolite and incredibly arrogant. It is a shoo fly shoo move towards your fellow bloggers.

Giving money is contributing to the school and I have found that I’ll do this when I can’t give time.

As you know, Bellevue is on the chopping block and if parents and the community do not organize, you and others will be holding those parent teacher conferences at Chimborazo or some other school.

edg, It is very difficult to “get people excited about the school” when it is considered arrogant to call on parents to participate in their children’s school.

According to a PTA board member at Holton, we need twelve very active in the school parents to get the ball rolling. Right now, our school has maybe three.

John, could you post our PTA meeting on the calendar?

Re: Post.180,
“The score, based on the comment traffic:
Uniforms crush creativity and violate our rights: 5”

Are you sure it’s that many? Considering the media hype and politicians’ praise, I’m surprised anybody opposes uniforms.

Individual liberties are protected from public opinion by the Bill of Rights. It’s creators talked about the “tyranny of the majority.” One’s right to life, liberty, and freedom of expression cannot be submitted to vote. The way it seems to play out in the schools is majorities take away individual rights, and the courts restore them.

Some of our most important battles are fought in the school context: Saluting the flag, school prayer, forcing students to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, the teaching of intelligent design, discouraging the teaching of evolution, displaying the Ten Commandments, and numerous free-expression prohibitions all began as school issues. And they all had, or have, community support. The case that upheld the equality rights of African-American school students, Brown v. Board, would never have been heard if public opinion prevailed.

The right of students to express themselves is hard won, and giving it up for the sake of convenience is a mistake, in my opinion.

(and without tooting his/her own horn)

“the tyranny of the majority”

I had forgotten about that beautiful phrase, which sums it up so well. Those guys had incredible forethought.

Thank you.

I understand people write in a conversational dialect on the community websites, however, I expect School Board members to write in a professional manner using correct grammar even on the blogs.

High school graduates are being placed in remedial English courses at VCU before moving on to English Composition 101. I don’t really know if we are better off today than we were yesterday. Our diplomas have the value of the U.S. dollar abroad.

Chandra

In reference to your post. This information came from me Carletta Wilson and I welcome the opportunity to talk with you because those issues have not been addressed or resolved. You were contacted about the Spanish teacher, air conditioning and several other issues. The new Spanish teacher arrived in January, four months after the old teacher left. The main air conditioner is still not working properly and there are three or four broken units in the library windows. I do not want to hash this out here but I’ve tried on several occasions to talk with you and even sent you an email on May 23rd of this year to address several security concerns with no response. Communication is everything. While I did not make the particular post the person posting is correct that you were unresponsive. You may have believed you were responsive to the needs of your constituents you have yet to communicate with me or the principal and the issues have yet to be resolved. Again I welcome the opportunity to speak with you. Carletta Wilson carlettapittman@cs.com

Lawd have mercy! Will someone please help the School Board member from the Sixth District find her “spellcheck” and “grammarcheck” keys on her computer.

Perhaps all SB members should be required to pass the 12th-grade SOLs … or, at least, pass the 8th-grade SOLs.