RECENT COMMENTS
Joel Cabot on Power Outage on the Hill
Eric S. Huffstutler on What is up with the Church Hill Post Office?
Eric S. Huffstutler on What is up with the Church Hill Post Office?
Yvette Cannon on What is up with the Church Hill Post Office?
crd on Power Outage on the Hill
Shockoe location for new stadium still a possibility
05/07/2013 12:44 PM by John M
The RTD connects some dots between a Denver visit by a delegation of Richmond-area leaders and the conversation around a baseball stadium in Shockoe:
After a trip to Denver last week with Richmond-area leaders, the vice president and chief operating officer of the Richmond Flying Squirrels believes the visit could lead to progress in discussions about a new Richmond stadium.
[…]
Professional baseball in Richmond has been played on the Boulevard since 1954, and The Diamond has stood there since 1985. City officials continue to evaluate a Shockoe Bottom location for a ballpark.
The spring 2013 issue of the Virginia Defender (PDF) explains the opposition to a ballpark in Shockoe Bottom.
PHOTO ABOVE: Coors Field via Wikipedia
If they do it, let’s push that they orient that opening toward Jefferson Park.
PLEASE bring baseball to Shockoe Bottom. The Boulevard is awful, it needs another 20 years still to be a vibrant fully developed place, and you will probably lose ANOTHER franchise if you keep it there. Putting a ballpark in the bottom would fill the huge empty (otherwise unbildable) broken tooth in the Bottom, whereas the BLVD location is a whole mouth of broken teeth. As for the NIMBYs in Church Hill, they simply don’t know that they live in a city, not a rural river town, so everyone – kindly disregard their opposition. Whatever the Church Hill-based opposition says against baseball (parking! traffic! VIEW! floods!), they are actually saying that they want all surrounding areas to be a greenbelt buffer for the neighborhood.
As a 17 year resident of Church Hill- I’m ready to defeat this crazy idea- once again!
Why has this idea been defeated in the past?
Cost- check
Should we focus City staff and resources on 2015- check
Flood plain- check
Submerged small river- check
Gravesite- check
Most historic spot in City- check
Fireworks disturbing several local neighborhoods- check
Loud announcers echoing off of Jefferson Park, Church Hill, and Libbie Park- check
Baseball field +development taking 3-4 blocks– WRONG
Eliminating city grid pattern- WRONG
I doubt very seriously anyone working downtown will go to a 2 or 3pm game during the week. Or come back into the City for a weekend game. They don’t come now.
-Interstate access is TERRIBLE! Of all the sites discussed- the bottom is possible the worst. One way in- one way out. Very short on and off ramps means traffic will be backed up constantly. Anyone who lives in the East End knows- this is potentially a disaster waiting to happen with the elimination of our grid (taking away alternative routes when there are accidents and only one interstate access point. Case in point- this morning May 2- traffic was backed up on every corridor and back street coming into and out of the bottom. Why- one accident. You can not engineer a solution by taking away roads! And we should not spend millions of highways funds for a third tier baseball team.
-The Slave trade is only one aspect of the history of this area. Although it is the most important and definitely deserves more consideration than your offering, its also the oldest part of our City. Of all the places to eliminate- why the first street put down in our City? Why the first place of commerce and the first neighborhood? Of ALL the locations in the City?!?
Denver is beautiful. But, their historic district is like our near West End. Our downtown and Shockoe Bottom have more history than anything in Denver- PLEASE be real. William Byrd, Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln… And thats just the white history!
Nearby- you have it wrong. Those opposed do not want a green belt dividing our neighborhood from others. It the complete opposite- We are opposed to a massive block eating development destroying our connectivity to the bottom and downtown. The bottom is entirely buildable- the City just needs to release the land for all those developers throwing up mixed use development throughout the Bottom. Its the fastest growing neighborhood in the City. Just stop talking about a ridiculous overpriced folly for triple A baseball and you will have offers for every parcel left.
We citizens need to get ready because putting a multi-million dollar baseball field in Shockoe Bottom for a County supported (Braves and Squirrels both state the vast majority of their attendees are County residents) is too expensive, the wrong focus (2015 Bike), and the wrong use of our limited resources and time.
FIGHT FOR OUR BOTTOM!
I live in Church Hill and have long supported baseball in the Bottom – I’d like the development to include museum space that both anchors the slave trail and tells Richmond’s complex history. Ideally, the ramps to 95 would be lengthened and MCV would finally get the pedestrian bridge over the Broad St. ramp to 95. I look forward to watching fireworks from Libby Hill or Jefferson Parks. I’d love to have a reason to go out in the Bottom again – and gosh the pressure of a ball park might actually get the multi-modal transportation hub happening again. Currently, the mix of heinous bars and sketchy clubs isn’t serving Richmond’s history. Great restaurants continue to do poorly in the Bottom, because it’s remained seedy even with all of the increased housing opportunities.
I’ve changed my tune 180 degrees. Was opposed, now very open to the idea.
Last I checked, almost all of Main St. between 17th and 18th was vacant, and remains blighted. What is in “our Bottom” now that we so dearly need to protect, besides it’s history? We have so many dead blocks.
I love farmers markets, but the one in Shockoe has really been flailing for so long. Why can’t it move to the vacant area across from Millies?
As a resident of Church Hill, I’d love to walk or bike to a baseball game — an opportunity that is just not going to happen now. I’d be open to fireworks once a week, as well.
Just make sure the infrastructure is there. Parking can be a headache, as can highway exits. And that 100-year flood, well, we have a bit of time (hopefully) before that happens again…
Ugh, this again???
I’m proud to say that I’m a NIMBY. We don’t have space or the resources for this downtown. Plus, since when does everybody give a crap about the local baseball team enough to build them a new stadium?! I recall seeing a lot of empty sears at the handful of games I’ve attended. And just where the hell is everyone going to park?
I hope they bury this idea, AGAIN. It’s not feasible here.
And to the person above saying the Boulevard needs resuscitation, how do you expect that to happen when you take away one of the major destination spots??? How about we come over to your neighborhood and build a WalMart Supercenter in your backyard… Bet you’ll turn all NIMBY too.
@#3. I second everything you said. I wish they’d put this stadium business to bed for good. Talk about beating a dead horse. The Diamond works just fine, and it keeps traffic and noise somewhat isolated from residential zones. It also has a dedicated ramp onto 95. That traffic mess of fans leaving or arriving to a game in a dense residential area like Shockoe would be horrible. Ever try getting on 95 in the morning from Broad? It’s a bottleneck as it is, with one on ramp and pedesrians going to MCV, crossing over the on ramp (they need a pedestrian tunnel or bridge). Just imagine a few thousand people leaving a game and that’s the only available exit. NOT A GOOD IDEA. Traffic flow in general through Shockoe is slow due to volume from Church Hill, Fulton and areas like Rocketts and Varina coupled with the small tight streets. I won’t expound on the waste of money the stadium would be, that could be much better spent on our schools and public services. Keep the stadium out of the East end! I am a concerned Fulton resident.
I love this idea. I’ve lamented the suckhole that is Shockoe Bottom for over 10 years.
Was a NIMBY, again, but now all for it.
Comparing a stadium to a Walmart Supercenter just quashed whatever argument you can make. This could spur local businesses who would thrive around there.
Or would everyone just like things the way they are, another massive apartment complex or perhaps an ugly parking deck instead? Or just an abandoned lot? I’m serious — traffic and congestion issues are bad as they are, this could spur development of new traffic patterns all over the place.
#2 and 4 have it right. The Bottom’s constipated right now and has nothing going on of any real merit. It could use something like this to get it going again. This stadium is the laxative that Richmond’s bottom needs!
I’m usually kind of anti-development, especially when it involves shady characters building tall towers that ruin views. This is one of the few things in recent years that we all could benefit from.
Quit bitching about traffic – games are played after rush hour has long since cleared up.
All those parking spots that the commuters use will be open.
It will bring more focus to the slave trail by drawing people downtown.
Can the NIMBY crowd at least get their story straight? One group is saying nobody wants this and the games will all be empty, the other half is saying traffic will be a nightmare. Those can’t both be true can they? Truth is they’re both bullshit but if you guys were at least consistent it would be one thing.
All of Not in the Bottom’s arguments are deliberately misleading. Honest NIMBYs, please educate yourself if this project gets political legs. The numbers, location, infrastructure and traffic do work. The studies show after 6:30 games would have less traffic than state employee rush hour. Dishonest NIMBYs, Shockoe Bottom will not be your greenbelt even if you win this one. Your victory will mean state parking decks.
The promise of new businesses in the bottom is wishful thinking. When people go to baseball games, they show up, park, eat there, drink there, buy souvenirs there, and then get in their cars and drive home. At best, you’ll see increased spectators at games excited about the new digs. Trust me, they’re still going to pack it in and have dinner at “downtown” short pump where “the parking’s just so much easier”.
I really view it as a waste of money more than anything. I think the costs far outweigh the perceived benefits. I’m just not sure why it has to go downtown… I feel that the current location is really a great place for it.
Some of you speak as if the NIMBYs are a unified front who are all in agreement. In fact they (we) are made up of different people with different opinions from different backgrounds and different interests. The acronym NIMBY has somehow convinced some of you that people against the stadium are actually an organized bloc of stadium haters. It’s just a label, like ‘the American people’ or ‘Richmonders’. The only similarity in their philosphy is they don’t want a white elephant of a stadium dropped into their neighborhood.
As far as the theories of the benefits that the stadium will bring, what has the Diamond done for Boulevard/Northside? It’s a vacant zone of seedy motels and industrial parks. People come to the game and then go home. What makes you think that all of the visitors to the stadium are actually going to take their kids to the seedy Shockoe restaurants? And stroll the inviting and safe streets of the Bottom. They’re not. They’re going to come watch the game, stuff their faces with overpriced hotdogs and beer, and jump back in their SUVs, line up at the onramp to 95 and go home to the counties. They’re not coming for the Slave Trail, or the history or the eclectic cuisine. They’re coming to watch a baseball game and some fireworks.
13/14 – You underestimate both the baseball crowd and the transformative nature of new foot traffic. The new restaurants on Grace Street jump when there are events at the theater. Restaurants all over downtown see a jump on 1st Fridays. Right now, Kitchen 64/Sweet 95 is the only business really in position to benefit from the baseball crowds, and they certainly get a nice bump in season.
The argument that “something is needed” to save the bottom from being a empty parking lot is false.
Look at they owners of the vacant land in the bottom- it’s almost entirely the City people. What is keeping this land vacant? It’s not lack of interest from developers- the bottom is one of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the City. The vacant lots exist because their owner – the City- wont sell them. It’s not lack of interest. If there were a lack of interest why would the hundreds of units north of broad have been built, the new apartment buildings at 21st and Main, the new apartment building on Cary and 18th, the new apartment building at 20th and Franklin… The demand is there for these ‘eye soars’ and ‘delabitated’ zones to be built but no one can- until we kill this idea once and for all of a 70 million dollar baseball field for a third tier baseball team.
At the risk of sounding like Buddy, can you folks stop using the name field as a subject line? My guess is you’re all a bunch of one issue whiners but can you at least choose a name.
WTF is a ‘delabitated’ zone? Must be some special terminology, hence the quotes? Also, I think it’s a positive thing when my eye ‘soars’. It beats eyes sinking.
I’m not usually one to play grammar cop but it’s really funny when you put your own typos in quotes for us. If the logic were better, I’d overlook it but you’re throwing all kinds of shit against the wall to see what sticks. Judging by your post, we might as well burn the whole city if this goes in because all is lost.
There’s plenty of NIMBYs that raise a valid point and stick with it. You are all over the place though.
Truth is, this is the kind of thing the city needs. Imagine hundreds of thousands of cars driving up on the James river bridge on 95 north at night. To the left, they see a beautiful, packed, dense city skyline. As they get off the bridge and continue, to the right is a bunch of beautiful looking historic buildings with apartment advertisements, a clock tower with a glowing train shed, the silhouettes of people briskly moving inside with activity as an Acela train pulls into the station. Astounded, the interested driver continues to look to the right. And he sees a slavery museum, a pretty nice looking facility, and? A baseball park. It’s just icing for an already awesome cake that’s finally getting baked after several decades of the wrong image portrayed of nightclubs, partying and crime. Families will want to come down here. And to be honest, I don’t really like the boulevard location at ALL. Why a baseball park in the middle of nowhere? I can just barely see it from the interstate, and that too it’s just such an impractical place for any type of foot traffic, that for lords sake it’s located in an industrial area with a bunch of city departments and the ABC headquarters. How is that a nice location for some good ol family baseball night? At least if the entire plan for shockoe gets realized, we’ll have high caliber dining, thousands of renters and owners living in tons of rejuvenated beautiful old warehouses, a slavery museum, a clock tower train station with high speed rail attached to a glowing glass train shed turned visitors center/retail area. And all right near a canal walk that drains into Outside magazine’s best river (town: RVA).
And you anti-progressives have this history. We all know this too well. It’s what keeps the city moving forward with great projects that can remove the blight and rejuvenate such tortured areas that have withstood (thankfully) years of crime, flooding and so much other stuff. But whenever something real good comes up that really gives the area something to talk about and wait happily for, it gets shot down in the eyes of the naysayers, who sadly almost always get their way. With each city, there should be a healthy balance between preservation and new construction. but it’s just always preservation, which doesn’t always lead to apartments, most of the time it just leads to shitful blight. So how’s about giving this a chance, not just for the sake of the more liberal citizens sanity, but also for the progress of the city that ultimately we all can agree is a beautiful place like no other.
Oh, and #16, if we don’t build a new stadium soon, we will have NO baseball team. But based on the shitless attitude given towards the project, it just seems richmond would rather have it that way.
Navia… all for a WalMart Supercenter downtown! Let’s make it happen!
Ha!
Right now, parking is getting like the Fan… I am neither for or against this time… I was against the initial plan, for the second, didn’t care for the other 1000… and I still think with the land cleared in Manchester, that would be the perfect spot. It should be on the river…
The park will NOT promote foot traffic other than the huge lack of parking they ever plan for it. They will NOT help local business because they have consessions they want people to buy from. When they mention the size of project they forget that not all that land is for sale. That the stadium does not all fit where it is proposed or that it is in a Flood plane. Trying to Gold plate this idea is a waste of time and it still smells like fertlize.
I love it when people assume that because you are against one kind of development you are against all kinds. Please remember there is more development going in the bottom than any othe area of the City. We don’t, the Bottom doesn’t, the City doesn’t NEED a multimillion dollar baseball field in the Bottom. Despite that its a bad idea due to many reasons given over the last several times this bad idea was defeated, the Bottom will be developed if the City releases its chock-hold on the area. Why not do something for the Squirels? We should. Anyone supporting this idea should be able to provide reasons why the Boulevard, where a stadium exists should not be rehabbed and updated at a fraction of the cost. They should convince those opposed that eliminating our oldest neighborhoods existing street pattern is better that studying something in Manchester. They should provide reasons why disrupting burial grounds is soo much better than using City Stadium. And finally, why a flood plain that already contains a covered small river is the best place for a massive multi block development in a City that has one of the worst storm water issues in the Country. With so many other great options to giving the Squirels a better nest to call home we can accomplish everyone’s hope of new home for baseball, preserve our most historic neighborhood, secure the protection of a sacred location, improve growing traffic problems, spur development in the Bottom, and increase revenues.
Not in the Bottom, you are futher misinformed. The empty lots are empty because they require flood infrastructure – essentially a pier connecting them to areas outside the zone – in order to make them “buildable.” Therefore, they can never be developed without a comprehensive plan (that includes flood infrastucture) because each lot cannot bear the cost of it’s own “pier.” This is VERY common in river towns everywhere and frequently engineered. Put a ballpark in the middle with this infrastucture and POOF, all the neighbors can use it too, and build on their empty unbuildable lots!
Or, Not In The Bottom, why don’t you run the numbers on what the necessary flood zone pier/concorse to make the lots developable would cost the public without something like a ballpark to bear the cost of access for others. Or check out how the government can build whatever it wants (parking decks!?!?) without customary approvals.
This is not a false choice, my friend.
For all those worried about the businesses in the Bottom, why don’t we just give them all the money that would be wasted on a new stadium and see if that doesn’t spur improvement. If we can spend money on a baseball team , why not existing businesses.
@22 – your name is wrong. I’m willing to bet I live closer to the site than you do (or at most a block or two farther) and I am very much for it thank you.
@23 – again, you’re all over the place. Pick an argument and stick with it. You sound like Scott Burger does when he gets on his lower water bills will fix our education system, make this city great again, reduce consumption, make it easier for poor folks to consume more, etc rants. 10 sloppy arguments does not one good argument make. If you had to pick one argument to try to convince us, what would it be?
@25 – that’s a dumb question. Folks get enjoyment out of going to ball games. If this was strictly a renewal play, I’d agree that it may not be the most efficient. You’re ignoring the stadium’s primary purpose.
The park serves a valuable public good for many people. I won’t claim everyone loves it but can you name anything that Richmond does that we all love?
‘Anonymous’ has weighed in on the idea:
Firstly, we’re not going to become some sort of destination city with our minor league baseball team if we get a new stadium. Anyone who maintains that position is an optimist at best. I can’t think of any attraction that I said, ‘Nah, I don’t want to go there, their facilities are old and outdated!’ It’s not the facilities, it’s what they’re offering, which is minor league baseball. Secondly, parking: Where are people going to park? The Bottom can’t even manage a large event at the Canal Club plus the regular Saturday night crowd, let alone an even halfway filled stadium. They’ll end up parking in Church Hill and we’ll end up just like The Fan, and having monthly meetings with our neighborhood association, trying to come up with parking pass rules. Thirdly, the city is already laying off teachers and rehiring them at appalling low pay. We have streets that need repaving (especially before that bike race we’re doing here, right?) an entire sewer system that’s outdated, a river system that needs care and maintenance (something that’s supposed to be a major attraction for the city,) and countless other projects that should come first before some baseball stadium.
My solution? Don’t hold onto this Richmond City. Share the ball. Put it on the old Azalea Mall lot that sits on Richmond/Henrico lines, and breathe in some life over there. There’s plenty of room for parking and an area that’s just as in need of a pick-me-up.
Interesting. The “Anonymous” letter decries capitalism yet it was addressed to…
PUBLIC OFFICIALS!
Who is it that I’m not supposed to trust? Who is that seems unrepentant? Smells more like cronyism to me.
Thanks for the unpleasant reminder that even when I agree with ends, I rarely agree with the city’s means. I’d love a stadium downtown. Sadly, just like every thing else in Richmond it’s likely going to be done in a pocket greasing fashion.
Our elected officials don’t just “get into bed” with crooks… they make pornos with them and broadcast it on the evening news! Would it be too much to ask for a ballpark project where not one dollar of the city’s money makes it into a felon’s pocket?
All this idealism is really cute, and almost convincing, but you guys, we’re not talking a major league baseball team! I think you’re really overestimating the impact of having a brand spanking new stadium for a AA baseball team here. I can’t say that’s the catalyst downtown needs.
I, too, think the city needs to focus much more on how to improve their current poverty rates and education system before they concentrate on becoming a sports town. But, Anonymous explains this much more eloquently than I can. What good will Richmond city be as a sports town if none of the fans actually live here?
I do support the ballpark, as long as parking is addressed. However, I would like to see more information.
Last time there were detailed plans that were available online (through CHPN, I think) to view and a website that also had a great of information about the park on it. Are we considering the same developer?
This whole on-going baseball stadium fiasco reminds me of the guy who ignored his really pretty girlfriend until she broke up with him then he massively overcompensated with the first uggo to come along. We weren’t willing to build a AAA-team a new stadium that we had had a decades long relationship with, they move out of town, and now we can’t open the coffers quickly enough to build a new one for a AA-team with a gimmicky name. What a perfectly responsible, not-at-all-kneejerk use of our financial resources.
Metro-Richmonders don’t care about double-A baseball. They care about VCU basketball and Va Tech football: nothing else raises our sports dander enough to even register locally. The Richmond Flying-Squirrels are a complete niche entity and the idea that this is a cornerstone in any well-thought out urban renewal plan is hysterical, completely regardless to where one would build the hypothetical stadium.
#34 Jaron –
“Metro-Richmonders don’t care about double-A baseball.”
The Squirrels attendance last season was 438,002, which comes to 6,257 per game(x70). VCU pulled 106,707 over 14 games (7,622 per game). While VCU does better per game, it’s obvious that there lots of people who like to go to baseball games.
I don’t recall any VT games played in the area.
#16 NOTB –
“Look at they owners of the vacant land in the bottom- it’s almost entirely the City people. ”
Actually, most of the land that would be used is owned by the Lovings family (of Lovings Produce). Some is Weimans (of Wiemans Bakery). There is some city owned property, and a number of smaller landholders.
I think when he says metro-Richmonders he really means those that live in the city… You know, the ones whose tax- money we’re talking about, the ones who are going to live near this stadium, and the ones who are going to shake their heads as they drive by it on their way to patronize a local eating establishment.
The majority of those people who just can’t get enough of the Richmond Flying Squirrels don’t live here, aren’t contributing their taxes, and have plenty of options for their baseball-loving kids’ education.
Nice, those 438,000 people must not live in the city. And if that is true, we don’t want them to bring their money to the city.
All of yall that are against this have nothing better to suggest, but just hate. All of this anti- hysteria. OMG the schools, OMG the poor, OMG the evil real estate developers. What else do you imagine is going to work in the bottom? Watch out or it will be a Walmart.
What does this have to do with schools? Honestly, we spend enough on the schools, more than the counties. Our schools do great when the parents are involved, look at Fox, Bellevue, and Holton. Don’t hold our city hostage to the academic shortcomings of some of the city schools.
The problem is they did promise a new Stadium but it was to be build near the Diamond.with confirmed plans and timetables and Then they Quietly Scrapped it and now go after Shockoe Bottom so they have an excuse not provide for what they promised. Business as Usual.
@36 – do you have any source for this or are you just speaking out of your ass? I’m curious how you were able to determine the residency breakdowns of the attendees when that data doesn’t seem to be available anywhere I looked.
Thanks #35 for bringing some hard facts to the party!
A lot of folks here just don’t get it.
This will cost the taxpayers nothing………..NOTHING!
The Mayor and others with the help of their PR people (are any of you commenting here since I sure see a lot of new posters!) will soon be announcing that the whole thing will be funded with private monies. Taxpayers won’t be on the hook for a dime! Really!!!
#35 Sammy:
Your facts are misleading. Let’s also include the data with respect to capacity. You’re correct in your average attendance numbers. That said, the capacity for VCU’s Siegel Center is 7,617. With an average attendance of 7,622/night, they’re over 100% capacity every night. That’s very telling.
On the other hand, The Diamond’s capacity is 9,560. With an average attendance of 6,257/night, they’re only at 65% capacity, which isn’t exactly hitting the cover off the ball. We should also keep recent history in mind. As recently as 2008, when the capacity of The Diamond was 12,134, the average attendance was 4,454/night, for an average capacity of only 37%.
Listen, I think a new stadium for the Squirrels would be great. I love the Squirrels; heck, I even own a jersey. But we’re just 5 years removed from sub-40% attendance. I’m just not sure that’s enough of a sample size to justify spending a lot of money on a new stadium and expect attendance levels to stay high, much less go up.
@42 – your point would matter if the new stadium were counting on increased attendance. The stats are supporting a claim that demand is reasonable compared to other events.
To illustrate why it’s the raw numbers that matter here – imagine a hypothetical situation where the squirrels drew 1M fans a night but their stadium held a billion folks. Would you say this was a bad idea? The stadium design in this case seems a little inefficient but I think most folks would say that it was worthwhile.
Whether 6K people qualifies as a big deal is largely subjective and probably depends on what glasses you are already wearing but the other poster pointed out the other numbers for comparison. If VCU basketball games are drawing people to the city / making city residents happy, the squirrels games are doing the same based on the numbers.
If you want to argue that we don’t need a stadium bigger than average attendance now, that’s a reasonable point. To my knowledge, the stadium design hasn’t been confirmed yet but if they propose a 15K seat stadium and the budget only works for the city if that fills, we should look at % capacity.
In the meantime, you’re torturing the facts. The squirrels bring in / satisfy more city residents than any other cultural or sporting event that Richmond hosts to my knowledge.
Here’s some hard facts: Gwinnett County shelled out an additional $19 million in cost overruns for their stadium after the Braves moved there. Who pays that? Taxpayers. Fact.
Not saying I don’t love baseball and all but seriously folks this needs to be thought of in the context of overall budgeting by our public officials.
@ Alex- Weren’t you the one complaining about the failure of public officials for decades being the reason why our tax base has moved to the suburbs in the thread about interstates? Should we be spending $19 million in just cost overruns on a entertainment venue or dropping some cash on new facilities we really need….like public schools?
Fact- Revenues on parking at the new Gwinnett stadium were just 15% of the projections for the first year leaving taxpayers severely under compensated for the promises they were made by officials who brought the Braves back to Gwinnett.
Fact- The Braves, and only the Braves, have the option to leave Gwinnett after 15 years of occupancy of the stadium which would leave the taxpayers of Gwinnett County with 15 more years of Bonds to repay on the stadium without a team to generate revenue.
Don’t be fooled, we have significant priorities to attend to as a community, questionable deals with sports franchises which could leave us in very dire financial circumstances are not a priority!
The last time it was brought up, the new stadium was going to be designed with a seating capacity that was more on-target with the actual attendance numbers. I really think a spiffed up stadium, especially one in a cool location, could really stimulate attendance, though.
Re: traffic. It’s a dream, I know, but wouldn’t it be great to be able to jump on the train at Staples Mill and go to a game downtown? Just a thought, but damn, that would be so cool.
This is an interesting article on Deadspin concerning the Florida Marlins, a pro team who can’t even get it done.
http://deadspin.com/the-marlins-are-so-bad-businesses-dont-want-to-open-n-496019428
Also, I thought I should repost this. It is entitled, “Imagine.”
The perfect evening out.
My wife and I along with our good friends James and Cindy and their nine-year-old son. Enter the gates of baseball stadium. We are greeted by the valet. We are escorted to our table in the baseball stadium dining hall, where our preferred beverages are already in place. Little Jimmy is taken to the baseball stadium nannies. After we are seated. The ladies wished to visit the salon, for a little touchup or a pedicure while the gentlemen discuss baseball, baseball politics, baseball business, etc.
When we asked our attendant to commence serving dinner, our food was presented and served from beautiful ornate baseball-shaped carts. Abundant selections served in the portions we desired. I had the garlic fillet with wild rice, I had them put that on the same plate. I also had a side of peanuts, Cracker Jack and mushrooms.
The baseball stadium attendant was very helpful in helping us choose the wine. The wine list was displayed on a large scoreboard with pictures of the bottles and a description of characteristics. This made it very easy for each of us to choose our favorite. While we had a leisurely dinner we enjoyed several innings. The young lady who sang Casey at the Bat was amazing. The Kings dance that night was a set from Field of Dreams, the umpire who had to judge the performance was absolutely hilarious.
Afterwords, James and I ascended to the baseball stadium roof for a cigar in lounge. James was very impressed by the one half acre infield overlooking the floodplain. He wants to reserve it for his sister’s pool party.
When we informed our baseball stadium attendant that we were ready to leave. We were treated to carry out selections from the dessert cart and beverage cart. I ordered hot dog-flavored tea, James got a Grassy Knoll (half astroturf, half coffee). My wife and Cindy both got the fresh strawberries dipped in pine tar and a bottle of water.
When we got to my car. Johnny was in the backseat playing with his new bat. The uniforms, and my wife’s cleats, which were in the trunk had been cleaned and pressed. My car had been freshly detailed, and the gas tank topped up. After we were handed our carry out selections, I looked around at everybody and said, it’s good to be the king. They all agreed.
@49 – I see what you did there. Brilliant!
@45 – good memory, bad comprehension. My point was that the city had done nothing to make the city attractive for folks to live. A walking friendly stadium would do that well. More money blown on the same fundamentally flawed approaches to our other problems won’t (spoiler: we’re spending enough on most things, we just aren’t spending it efficiently). This is exactly the kind of stuff the city could do to make itself more attractive.
I do hear your point about being sure we don’t get raped by the city’s incompetence in negotiating though. Perfectly valid concern and something that needs to be fully thought through before signing any deal. Not related to the location though…
What’s becoming clear in our small discussion of opinions is there are many reasons not to build a new stadium in the bottom- including environmental, historic, slavery, financial, transportstion, priorities, outcomes, and viable alternatives. There a few good reason to build a smaller stadium somewhere close to the counties where a majority of attendees live and possibly share in some fraction of the cost.
With a nod to #35
Like a good friend trying to tell his buddy (Richmond) to dump a bad girlfriend- Dump this chick we call Baseball in the Bottom. She is bad news. Your a good guy and once the word gets out your available you’ll have a ton of new suitors before you know it.
Let Shockoe Bottom develop into our City’s best example of urban living with more dense mixed-use development offering year round (not seasnal) enjoyment and revenue.
@49 LOLOLOL you made my night. King’s Retreat is the all-time best CHPN thread:)
p.s. the stadium would be great, in my opinion. And I like the idea of wrapping a museum into the plan–makes sense. However, it will only work if GRTC and the city’s public transportation initiative are really front and center on this.
To locate a stadium in the bottom would cost the city 100s of Millions that it doesnt have. Successful businesses would have to be purchased, closed, and leveled. New infrastructure would have to be built. New roads. new interstate ramps. Etc. RIchmond would be broke and bankrupt before this could be completed.
And, if per some chance, the city was able to actually complete this project in a decent manner, it would take decades to recoup the costs in taxes.
Richmond cant even keep roads properly paved. How is it going to afford all of this?
#49:
Loved that! Hysterical!
It’s always great to see The Kings Retreat pop back up from time to time! Thanks for the laugh!
IMHO, I supported the ball field coming to the Bottom when I lived on the Hill and still do. I think it would be the perfect catalyst for rejuvenation and revitalization in the Bottom. The added volume of people in the area would help to deter at least some of the crime that has plagued the area for so long. As for traffic, I doubt that would be a huge problem to be honest. The downtown area already has that many or more people coming and going during rush hour. Most games would be after rush hour too…
I don’t know whether it could be designed as a multiuse facility but I think that would help matters much. That would be a great place to see baseball, maybe hold Shamrock the Block and/or other festival type events, perhaps even concerts and such. It would be a great open air venue in Spring, Summer, and Fall…
Just my two cents!
A lot of misinformation is still floating around here, most of it probably deliberate. No business will be closed on what are now empty lots. OK, maybe a Circle K. The Squirrels attendance numbers are a huge success story. A modest ballpark would be filled to the rim (the Diamond was overbuilt). Major league ballparks are not comparable to minor league parks because of the huge differences in scale, and the ability of a small park to be woven into existing urban environments.
100s of millions? Please. MAYBE 10s. MAYBE.
Continue the hyperbole, straw men, false choices, and red herrings. Countdown to as hominem attacks …5…4…3….
Oh, and @51 – the Counties are not interested AT ALL in sharing any costs. Please follow the conversation on this that has been taking place in the public sphere for 15 years. Also, check out what everyone else in the real estate industry already knows… the suburbs are turning to crap, fast (<—- ad hominem attack!).
They should probably add more “people” to the proposed stadium image, lol.
Coincidentally, I just returned from a trip to Denver. Nothing to do with Richmond as my step daughter lives in Lodo. We did go to see a baseball game while there and spent a lot of time in the Lodo area of Denver. The feel of Lodo is very much the same as the bottom, although Lodo seems much more residentially populated and has a lot more restaurants and tons of breweries, all of them a draw on their own regardless of baseball. There is transit – light rail in to the city and electric shuttles around Lodo and the capital area, which is light years ahead of Richmond. There is a very significant police presence on the street all the time – I am talking about police officers walking a beat, not just sitting in cars. There is also a huge homeless population – way worse than Richmond. If you are eating outdoors on one of the patios, the homeless come onto the patios to ask for money. There are lots of people in the area, even on a weekday, going to the many restupaurants or stores – H&M, The Loft, Banana Republic, a CVS and a Riteaid, Patagoinia, etc.
@57 – if you’re referring to the picture at the top of the article, that’s Coors Field in Denver. We’re not getting anything near that big here.
Nearby- I think you are bit misinformed myself. 75-80% of the land proposed for this project CAN be developed. The several parking lots and the property on Broad- including the gas station (obviously) can ALL be built on. FYI- What will be the cost to dig up the gas storage tanks (required by law) when they take out the Exxon? $$$$
I’m actually very familiar with development and can assure you- I can actually almost you – it will cost between 50 and 65 million. When you start digging in a flood zone, putting in utilities, and comply with all the environmental rules and regs for storm water run off. This doesn’t even consider the halting of work and delays when they come across burial sites.
Richmond Raiders Stadium! We MUST build it!
Why aren’t we building a $50 million stadium for the Richmond Raiders? It’s the perfect phase two of our obsession with third tier sports right?
How many bodies (other than fresh ones) have ever been found in Shockoe Bottom? Pretty sure that number is close to zero.
I spoke to a friend in North Side who lives about a mile from the Diamond. He said that initially the fireworks were fun to watch from his backyard. Then they scaled them down so he only hears the booms, but doesn’t see anything. He especially likes it when the games go into overtime and he’s treated to the booms after ten or eleven, when his kids are asleep and wake up to the explosions.
I am not anti-developement, and I agree that the Bottom needs to be invigorated. I just think there are better ways. The river area is starting to move in that direction. Canal walk and the Rocketts area are a hint of what could be. Ever been to the waterfront in Georgetown, outside of DC? Restaurants and bars accessible by land and water. People mooring their boats three and four deep on Friday nights to attend those bars. Richmond has one of the least developed river fronts in any city I’ve lived in. A multi use zone that can be used throughout the day and evening by many people long into the future is much more interesting and useful than a stadium that caters to only one sport and sits essentially empty when not in use. If the money is there and is going to get spent, let’s not do it on a stadium in the Bottom.
Ooops- you went to far on your opinions Nearby. With the significant damage from Hurricane Gaston (a perfect example of why millions of dollars should not be invested in a limited use athletic field in the bottom) including the partial collapse of the Shockoe Creek cover several human remains were found.
In addition, the current location of the “Negro Burial Grounds” (as stated on the locator sign) is the second African-American burial ground in the Shockoe Bottom (hundreds of bodies). The first burial ground for African-Americans has been identified but it’s location is recorded in several original historical descriptions as south, closer to the river as the second. That places it pretty much IN the current location of the bodies found from Gaston and in the proposed baseball site.
Here is some good reading on just ONE reason (arguably the most significant) the baseball diamond in the bottom is such a bad idea:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Digs-Devils-Half-Acre.html?c=y&page=1
http://defendersfje.tripod.com/sacredgroundproject/id8.html
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3916.html
http://www.dhr.virginia.gov/pdf_files/SpecialCollections/Lumpkin's%20Jail%20data%20recovery%20report%20vol.%201%20(research).pdf
And there are many more.
@55 – it’s a stretch to call that Circle K a “business”… I’d describe it as a combination of a homeless shelter for aggressive panhandlers, an open air rap concert with three or four cars offering different obscene songs at once and a charity offering some of the worst workers I’ve ever seen a paycheck for taking work breaks between their full time smoking jobs. Stadium or no stadium, I’d love to see that shithole get torn down. In fact I’m surprised it hasn’t blown up yet from all the vagrants, customers and employees (hard to differentiate them) smoking feet away from the pumps and propane tanks.
No, Not in the Bottom, I don’t think I did. The slave history is very important to how the bottom develops, but very few actual bodies have been found and all related locations (except Lumpkins) are educated guesses based on old maps not drawn to scale. Again, except for Lumpkins, every single other location is a guess. The current areas set aside for memorials and interpretation, while appropriate, are generous considering the physical evidence.
Noise is the least of the problems a stadium in the Bottom would bring. The city has managed over and over to mess up that area– which should have hosted the biggest and best farmer’s market in Richmond. Traffic and crime will be incredible in that bottleneck. The Boulevard is the best place, and has nothing to do with the quality of the teams we get. Smoke and mirrors once again. The deal is a get-rich-quick-on-the-taxpayer-dollar for developers who promise retail and condos that are not needed. How about fixing our roads, sidewalks, parks, and water system? Church Hill’s infrastructure is worse than it was when we started improving it 40 years ago… Yet we pay more and more into city coffers. I’m ranting because I’m frustrated that this bad idea has raised it’s pie-in-the-sky head yet again.
Funny how my Wal-mart comments were laughed off, but that’s exactly what they’re going to build if/when they demolish the Diamond. (http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/is-boulevard-the-next-short-pump/Content?oid=1890413)
But, you asked for it.
@69 – Sounds like a win-win. Both the Boulevard location and Shockoe would become better utilized than they are now.
Hate on Wal-Mart all you want, I don’t shop there personally but there are plenty of folks that do and it would be nice for them to have one close by. Put decent bus service out to that site and you give everyone in the city a decent low cost food option.
The people living on the Northside disagree with you wholeheartedly (check the comments). They don’t want a Wal-Mart near them and would prefer development that’s more eclectic and local. I agree with that sentiment, and I also would not want to live near that monstrosity.
“Hating” on Wal-mart wasn’t the intention, and I don’t believe I did that. I’ve shopped there before (not for produce though, yuck.), nothing wrong with it. But we’re trying to come up with thoughtful and creative development that enhances our vision for the city, and I’m sorry, but another Wal-mart doesn’t fit that vision. We should leave that to surburbia where it belongs.
Anyway, I don’t want to argue about whether we need a Wal-mart or not, because the fact is: I’m not in Northside often so it doesn’t really affect me. The point is that people who are FOR, but don’t live NEAR the new proposed Diamond may feel different about the proposed development when they realize what the plans are for the area after the Diamond actually gets demolished.
I despise Walmart, so let’s not get that. However, a selection of decent stores in the City in some kind of mall format would be great. I hate driving to Short Pump to give my taxes to Henrico.
@71 – the best solution to both problems is for the city to just auction off these two parcels and stop trying to pick winners because there’s nothing in Richmond we’re all going to agree with.
If Wal-Mart feels that the demand is there, they’ll win the bidding. If you’re right about lack of demand, somebody else will snatch the land up and do something else.
Same for the Bottom. While I’d love to see a stadium and would support it with my dollars, I’d actually prefer if the city wasn’t involved. The developers always seem to outsmart the city when these types of things happen and we’re left holding the bag for the city’s foolishness.
Get the top dollar for the land and let the free market sort out what goes here. My posts in support of the stadium are not an endorsement of city planning (there’s an oxymoron…) but rather a personal vote that I’d love to have a stadium nearby.
On a related note, it always seems to me that “eclectic” shops is a nice way to describe failing business models that look nice for a few months but then nobody buys anything and they close.
Sadly the average American consumer has shitty taste and the numbers show that a majority of folks actually do want that Wal-Mart. We may all say we want nice stuff but we can’t afford it. In a perfect world, we’d all shop at little eclectic boutiques selling handmade local organic products made by high paying manufacturing jobs and then use our super convenient mass transit to get home. But only if we can get it for the same price as it costs us to drive to Target and buy the crap made by a sweatshop worker.
There’s not enough critical mass in this city to support more eclectic stuff or these stores would already exist. If the big box stores buy these parcels, it’s because they know the demand is there but they haven’t had access to the land before.
How many of your dollars are currently going to eclectic local stores vs. big box stores? Sure you might pick up a trinket every six months at that little boutique. You think your $50 is going to keep them open? They need the other $20000 you spent with all the big players if they’re going to be viable.
@72 – I think your take on this is right. Sure it’s not perfect but let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Worst case, it brings tax dollar back to the city and cuts down on commuting to West End. I’d say that’s a nice start.
Can we please just build this thing in front of legends in Manchester?
I agree about bringing retail within the city limits, because I too would like to keep more of the money I spend in the place where I can benefit from it.
Alex, you’re absolutely right about demand vs. idealism regarding eclectic/local shops. Totally guilty (not of having shitty taste, though :). To be fair, I was only echoing what the Northside NIMBYs want out of the “deal” to make my original point.
I think a mall/commercial area would do well there. And of course, a Wal-mart would fare pretty well, too, but that doesn’t mean it should be there. Someone in the other thread mentioned luring businesses in and making it an office park basically. Or we could just rebuild the Diamond there. There’s a million and one things they could develop. I’m just saying, clearly the city is at a turning point where we’re really trying to define ourselves here and lure in visitors/”settlers”, and it’s not going to be accomplished by putting Wal-marts in our empty lots. It matters what goes there. Especially because of the fact that the city is in a position to sell to whoever they like. They should be strategizing with the community and local organizations, not the developers. Those fat cats will be long gone and profiting regardless of the outcome.
I would just like to point out that just this week Style Weekly has an article about the Redskins training camp- it’s already $1.1 million OVER BUDGET and the mayor quietly announced at a recent city council meeting that the city has a $5 MILLION deficit this fiscal year. This mayor has already promised more $ than the city can come up with to a bunch of sports ideas. Please stop the nonsense Mr. Mayor!!
Couldn’t uniqueness, big box, local, and boutique be accomplished by selling to developers (as suggested) with a requirement to build a mixed-use development surrounding an athletic field (used for baseball during its season and other sports like a velodrome for 2015)?
And along those lines, let developers build more residential mixed-use in the Bottom around increased park land in the flood plain and a slavery museum to boot.
I hate to promote Style in anything but this is a good beginning to an argument NOT to put a baseball diamond in the Bottom.
http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/denver-dreaming/Content?oid=1890408
@79- so a stadium for a team that brings in half a million visitors a year is not a priority but a velodrome for a one time bike race is? Can you explain your logic on this one because I’m not following it?
Is this just a reflection of your personal preference? If it is, that’s fine but keep it in perspective and recognize you’re in a pretty small minority who cares about that shit. Or are you seriously suggesting that a bike race is going to matter to more than a handful of folks? If so, you’re jeopardizing your credibility. I’d interested in placing the first bike racing related wager ever made in America with you in that case.
Any interest most Americans had in cycling after Lance Armstrong’s run has been wiped out once we learned that his blood made Barry Bonds’ look cleaner than an 8 year old Mormon kid’s. Dopers in geeky spandex outfits zipping by for a second doesn’t do it for me.
How about a business park instead? How about two business parks, one in the Bottom, and one on the Boulevard? That would be amazing – do we really need baseball or more retail? I vote more close in, interesting jobs. Let’s see if we can woo some big company or a few to come in instead of wasting all this time on minor league sports (and training camps).
I read these comments and became enraged by the ignorance and absolutely CRIMINAL lack of vision that some of you people have. Navia, you are the WORST. Seriously, do you hate this city?
Let’s get a few things out of the way:
1.)Stadium deals are shady, and there will be people that profit from the taxpayer expenditures that will be used for this stadium. The Squirrels, the development companies, etc. It happens. If you want to have a venue like this with a team in your community, it has to be done this way. Also, the Squirrels will be contributing a decent amount to this deal from the rumors that have been floating around. They know this is the best AA market in the country and a new stadium like this would send their franchise into orbit.
2.)The slave burial ground is a concern, and great pains should be taken to figure out exactly what is there, and where. Incorporate a museum or historic display or something to make note of the location. However, to hold this project back for something like this hurts our city in the here and now. This city has done well to preserve its history and thankfully we are NOTHING like Charlotte Town Center or “downtown” Atlanta. But there comes a time when we need to move forward and grow this city. Has anyone thought of the fact that a public venue like this actually BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER? The redneck from Chester and the black family from the East end. They sit next to each other for an evening of baseball and enjoy this great new place in their capital city. Maybe it helps Richmond become a place that the suburban counties stop complaining about and actually start coming out to use and enjoy. Given this citiy’s past, I can’t think of a better way to honor the memory of these people than to have a place like this where people come together.
3.)THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF PARKING. THIS IS AN URBAN AREA, AND THERE WILL BE TRAFFIC AND HORNS HONKING AND PEOPLE WALKING ABOUT. How many efforts have we undertaken here that attempt to foster or enhance the urban atmosphere? Convention centers, downtown malls. How may times have we failed? LOTS. Welp, I’m here to tell you, this won’t fail if they do it right. if the place is build with style and class, integrated into the neighbrhood, it will be a gem. Imagine the buzz on a Friday evening as workers are heading home, some sticking around for the game. Folks wandering down from Tobacco Row and Church Hill…..filling up bars and restaurants that will be drawn the area because of this development. You don;t even have to like baseball or sports….its not even about that. In my mind, it’s really about the buzz and excitement this will bring. Something to DO! A beacon as people drive by on 95 and look down at the crowd, lights, smoke billowing up from the vendors. It will also help fundamentally change the neighborhood… boosting the better restaurants that are there, enticing more, and pushing out seedy clubs that dont do anything for the neighborhood and look like abandoned buildings during the day.
4.)Navia…..people going to baseball games only go to the games and then go home???? Yep, that’s exactly what they do at a place like the Diamond BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO DO. Have you been to Fenway, Camden Yards, or even Nats Park (area is just now getting going but it’s going to be great)? People will POUR into restaurants and bars before the game. FamiIIes will be walking around Shockoe Bottom with their kids…..and it will be safe because there will be TONS of people around doing the same! There will be so much excitement, and so much buzz around it, it will draw other people down to the Bottom, too, even if they aren’t going to the game! It’s minor league baseball, people will linger in bars and slowly wander over, and probably leave early to hit someplace else.
In my mind, if you don’t support this stadium in the Bottom, you are either fundamentally lacking the creativity to envision what could be, or you literally HATE this city and don’t want it to succeed.
That is what it comes down to. Let me be perfectly clear. THERE IS NO SINGLE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT THIS CITY IS CAPABLE OF UNDERTAKING THAT WILL HAVE SUCH A PROFOUND, POSITIVE IMPACT ON ONE OF IT’S MOST IMPORTANT NEIGHBORHOODS.
BUILD IT IN THE BOTTOM. BUILD IT IN THE BOTTOM NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’M OUT!
Here are a couple recent opinion pieces from the Times-Dispatch, for and againt the stadium. The ‘against’ article makes some strong arguments, especially financially, why it’s a bad idea.
(Links have been shortened for easy clicking.)
Nay: http://alturl.com/2gr6d
Yea: http://alturl.com/dj5p3
@83 – I agree with most of what you say but don’t agree that shady deals need to be a part of this. Sadly so much of the discussion has focused on the site and little attention has been paid to the important stuff – what the city’s position will be, who the players will be in the deal. If only we could shine the light there.
I’d rather have a stadium in the middle of nowhere that the city isn’t getting raped by a bunch of crooks on over an awesome stadium right down the hill that went to a bunch of the Mayor’s pals for a well below market price.
@84 – good arguments, thanks for sharing. The against point of view is much more coherent than most of the kitchen sink arguments heard on here so far. However, it’s not quite clear what they are arguing for to me.
If this is meant to be a case that the city shouldn’t be involved in stadium building, I’ll concede it’s a solid one. However, much of those concerns could be solved by the city negotiating a better deal as opposed to the typical giveaway stadium that most markets have gone for. Short of that happening, I’ll concede that the city should walk. Again, as I mentioned above, the debate here should be on the particulars of the deal more so than the site.
If the argument is that the site in the Bottom is wrong but other locations are better, they barely developed that case. Most of the concerns listed in the against, apply just as much or more for a new Diamond.
The surest way to ensure that we don’t get screwed continues to be for the city to auction off these parcels (Diamond, Shockoe parcels that they own) and just stay out of it. No preferential treatment for connected parties, no backropm deals, just get out of the way.
The city wins twice – we get top dollar for the sale and whoever wins the bidding will likely be the party that can maximize the return from the land so it is likely to maximize taxes. We also win indirectly by not getting tied up in a stadium subsidization scheme.
If the winning bidder wants to build a stadium at one of the locations, let them do it assuming they have a sound plan for parking and access.
@ anothercurlydub – you said it brilliantly!