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Shockoe plans leaked ahead of expected announcement
11/08/2013 4:31 PM by John M
Style has a heads-up on the Mayor’s plans to develop the west end of Shockoe around a baseball stadium:
Samuels and others briefed on the plan say it targets the four blocks bounded by Broad, 18th and East Franklin streets and the train tracks.
It calls for a ballpark bordered by street-facing, mixed-use development, specifically a grocery store, 120-room hotel and apartments. The administration has yet to disclose the brand of the store or the hotel, but suggested it has obtained commitments. The mayor is expected to release those and other details when he unveils the plan publicly Monday.
The plan also calls $15 million in utility improvements, sources say, as well as plans for a slave history heritage site […]
Uhh…The intersections at Broad and 17th/18th are some of the most congested intersections in this whole area. Not to mention that if they are congested they block a major artery into/out of Church Hill.
I’m not NIMBY here, I am just trying to apply some logic based on my experience with this area and living on the Hill.There are places in Shockoe that would be GREAT for a stadium, but I worry that the series of lots pictured above might not fit the bill.
Guess we’ll see what the plan says. The devil will be in the details with this!
I’m excited to learn more about the plan. Hopefully we can hold off on the “this is a terrible idea” comments until the details are actually released. And a alternative/competing grocery store around here would be really nice.
That is a tight squeeze.
Fuck yeah Trader Joe’s!
I hope the mayor presents a rock-solid plan…he’ll need it. I’m all for it, but my gosh, so many issues need to be addressed. Like parking, hallowed ground, noise, financing, tax-generating mixed use development on Boulevard, infrastructure upgrades and oh yeah – the Not In My Back Yard crowd. Could it be the CH coffee shop issues pale in comparison to the potential friendly debate that’s about to ensue?
The grocery store should sweeten the pot significantly. I for one am very excited about this. Unless they start playing games during rush hour, I can live with the traffic.
Yay! Looks great! When do we start BUILDING?
For my .02¢ worth… I approve the plan. Of course they will have studies already in place about traffic and how to get around that issue. My question is the outer design issue to “fit into” the historic area? From years past they talked about integrating the existing storefronts on 18th into the outer walls of the stadium – or have fake facades to blend in. The Exxon would be moved across the street (need a updated station) where the old Loving’s Produce parking lot is on Broad.
My sources tell me the grocery store will be a Food Lion. Wah wah wah.
I’m all for this. The mixed use concept is kick-ass. Therefore, it’s not “abandoned 3/4 of the year” as the NIMBYs like to say. Residential, is great, and the hotel and retail chain is especially exciting. Imagine Whole Foods in the Bottom.
I’m a little concerned about traffic on Broad as well. Currently, that IS the primary way to the interstate going west after I hit every stop sign on Broad!
@11 – and who are your sources?
Eric,
If they could pull off the design you’re describing that would awesome. I like the idea of having the park tucked in amongst businesses so it doesn’t stand out.
Does not really matter what anyone thinks, supposedly it’s a done deal according to someone I talked to tonight.
As to the grocery store, large chain store such as Food Lion was also what I was told. And supposedly parking will be in nearby lots “which are empty after 6 p.m. when games start” according to same source. Source also claimed traffic will not be an issue “because games are after 6 p.m.” Source also said there are only two games per year played earlier in the afternoon.
Supposedly, according to same source (who claims to have been involved in discussions for some time), Boulevard site is about to be developed for big box stores and “will bring down your property taxes by bringing in more retail to the city.”
Not saying I agree with any of it, as I don’t, just quoting what I was told.
Personally I already have problems with traffic on Broad St. and Main St., cannot see this improving things much, and think it is shoehorning in something into too small an area. I also think the Blvd. site is already a sports venue, and has ample parking. It’s obvious that people don’t leave either a baseball game or Redskins training camp and spend money on surrounding businesses. But that’s just me, and this is not being put out to citizens for a vote.
I’m ok with Food Lion. They own Kroger. I’ve heard they are developing more upscale versions of themselves. We’ ll see.
@20 – where are you getting that from? Kroger’s the largest grocery chain in America and is most definitely not owned by Food Lion.
History, traffic, noise, cost, environmental, and basic disrespect of us the voters who pay their bills.
I can’t think of one reason why the grocery store and mixed can’t happen without baseball and a new field could be elsewhere.
I can’t wait for this to materialize. This would be the crowning jewel in Mayor Jones’ legacy. Hum a few bars with me now….
“Take me out to the ball game,
Take me out with the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don’t care if I never get back,
Let me root, root, root for the home team,
If they don’t win it’s a shame.
For it’s one, two, three strikes, you’re out,
At the old ball game.”
(repeat)
G, we agree for once. Can’t wait to walk down the hill for a game!
#22 sums it up nicely
Shoehorned indeed. If they’d put it across and up the street towards downtown, where the two big warehouses were taken down, which is just parking right now, I could sort of see the logic, and parking could have been integrated into the design. Also they would have been a block closer to the exit ramp. As it stands with this plan, Broad will become a clusterf*** every time the game crowd has to leave the area, before they reach the ramp to get on 95, which will also be a clusterf***. It’ll be like two rush hours on gamedays (one before 6pm, and one at the end of every game). Yay.
They have to preserve the existing buildings on 17th, 18th, and Franklin to win my approval. I’m praying they won’t go Jackson Ward on us and bulldoze history in favor of a generic Convention Center type of development. “Yeah, but it’s NEW!!” Just out of curiosity, isn’t that area registered as Old & Historic? I wonder if CAR would get steamrolled by city on this one – not that I have much faith in them anyway.
I heard Kroger a ways back. Would welcome anything, though. Mixed-use for the win. This is awesome.
Venture Richmond is asking that supporters gather at 10:30am on Monday at 17th & Grace Streets to “celebrate” the plan’s unveiling. Hopefully, we’ll see an equally large group of folks gather who will express their opposition to this the plan.
@20 Food Lion has no affiliation with Kroger whatsoever. Food Lion is owned by Delhaize Group from Belgium. You are correct on the upscale portion though….Food Lion has an upscale division called Bloom. Nice concept but Richmond is too small for their current marketing strategy.
So I can see many are already complaining about traffic and parking without even understanding what plans are in place to address those issues (not that there will be many). Folks who are citing the failures at 6th St. Marketplace and Main Street Station….Richmond is a vastly different place than it was just 10 years ago. Shockoe is different, Church Hill is different,Downtown is different. The changes that have taken place (with more on the way) will make the stadium in Shockoe a huge success! This is a great plan for the Bottom, Church Hill and the Boulevard. If the city has potential to do a build out with a shopping center on the Boulevard, I say go for it! Why are we letting all the city tax dollars float to the counties??? Richmond City and specifically the downtown area is under-served with QUALITY retail. That area of the bottom is an embarrassing wasteland…we don’t need more parks, we really don’t need any more huge museums… we need Quality services right here in the neighborhood. The stadium with a mixed use development is the best use for that space. I’ve never been a fan of Jones but, this is a good plan and finally, he’ll have something to show for his time in office. A project of this scale is the only answer to address the current issues in the Bottom…this type of development will push the problems out. Get behind this and let’s get this area cleaned up!
Correction- Food Lion dropped Bloom about a year ago and rebranded them to Food Lion.
It would be sweet if the park was designed so you could see the game from up on Jefferson hill park.
Far less people fit in a baseball stadium than the office buildings downtown- rush hour is only 30 minutes of slightly more congestion here. There’s plenty of parking already in the state decks. More flood protection, more development in vacant lots in the bottom, more lively after office hours, money for slave-history preservation- Count me in.
It’s not like they ever come close to capacity. Richmond is not a baseball town (anymore.) I highly doubt this is going to be a “If you build it, they will come” situation. (Sorry, had to make the reference.) So maybe people like me, who’ve been anti-stadium for years due to a lack of parking space and traffic flow, can be comforted in knowing that given this year’s attendance numbers, we won’t have too many people gumming up the works.
Or maybe we will. Maybe the people from the counties will do what they do best–come into the city for one thing, make a mess of things in one capacity or another, and leave without spending money here beyond their one event. Please see the football training camp for details.
What’s the general concencus on effect on property value on the hill? Also, please make the store a whole foods.
I think the idea about traffic has been addressed. Games happen after business hours and very little traffic comes “downtown” after hours since there are only restaurants open after 5pm.
And besides, has anyone here complained about the Raceway traffic during major races? What’s the difference? Just PLAN ahead and not wait to the last minute to drive to the stadium or better yet, use public transportation!
This stadium issue has been going on since 2004. I do want to see some design plans and yes Alex, back in 2008 was the proposal I mentioned then that changed in 2011… one was they rebuild business buildings all along the 18th street side that hides the entire height of the stadium but… I am hoping if they do that it isn’t some cheap pre-fab crap we see all over but they do some genuine stone and brick mason work.
http://shockoenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/baseball-stadium.jpg
As for the Farmer’s Market, wasn’t there a proposal within the past year to tear the old one down and build a actual multi-floor brick building there like the original Market when built in the 1800s?
Grocery? I would think Martin’s because there is a Food Lion down Mechanicsville and a Kroger about a far up Broad. The Market is a Farm Fresh so that leaves Martin’s.
The Squirrels were 2nd in the Eastern League in attendance last year, and set a franchise record. They’re doing ok.
http://rvanews.com/sports/flying-squirrels-set-new-attendance-record-averaged-over-6600-fans-per-game
@35 Impact on the Hill property values…up, up, and up! This will improve the desirability of the area big time. Live, Work and Play!
@34 Have you attended any squirrels games this year? They fill the place up pretty well most nites. Don’t believe all the junk you hear about folks in the counties not wanting to attend in the bottom. Once they see the place, they’ll come. This development will be the catalyst for transformation of the total Bottom. The games are more than baseball…the squirrels have done a great job at making it great family entertainment…every game I went to had great energy in the stadium and folks seemed to be having a nice time. With Shockoe cleaned up with pretty new buildings and a continuous draw of folks to the market, the hotel, the shops and restaurants nearby…it will be a win. Let’s build!
The folks who own the land under Loving’s Produce stand to make a killing on the stadium deal. Funny how the lobbying/PR firm hired to “persuade” us taxpayers doesn’t see the irony in naming the ballpark’s website http://www.lovingrva.com.
Background info on the web domain is at: http://whois.domaintools.com/lovingrva.com
The website was registered by the Alliance Group. Their “Grassroots” web page candidly tells us:
“Is there anything better than seeing people all fired up over an issue they feel passionately about? Well sure, if it’s YOUR issue. We have point people on our team who are great at identifying opinion leaders and recruiting them for a cause. Whether it be organizing volunteers, helping draft letters to the editor or op-eds, or coordinating letter writing campaigns, we will activate the grassroots to get your message out. People enjoy being part of an effort and we harness that enthusiasm to work for you.”
http://alliancegroupltd.com/Grassroots.htm
Their “Government Affairs” web page tells us:
“The Alliance Group helps clients secure meetings with the right decision-makers in the public sector. In assisting a large, publicly-traded company pursue a state government opportunity, the Alliance Group brought the relevant state cabinet secretary and agency head to the table to discuss project scope and deliverables. That meeting resulted in an improved process with regard to how the client communicates with key state leaders and agencies. The central focus of the government relations practice at the Alliance Group is facilitating personal interaction and leveraging relationships to affect important business and policy decisions impacting clients.”
http://alliancegroupltd.com/GovAffairs.htm
Glad to see this kind of enthusiasm here. I knew once the plans were out supporters would firm up. I too am very excited and hopeful.
I’m curious as to why people think a AA baseball field will attract people to Shockoe Bottom after they have gone home? Baseball is not a huge draw in Richmond- just ask all the business around the Diamond now. And the Diamond has better highway access. So, here’s the real point; if 78% of people in the greater Richmond region do Not want baseball in the the bottom- why would a few apartment buildings and a grocery store change their minds?
Looking forward to the details and hope this plan is well thought out! Glad the city hasn’t given up on this area.
urbngrilla… does Loving Produce own that property? I know that they owned the property on the North side of Broad where a warehouse burned down several years ago and then the rest torn down a couple months back. It is there the Exxon was originally planned to be moved to.
#42- Most of the people voting in that survey come from the counties- too bad- the counties decided they won’t pay for it, and we’ll build the stadium where we want. Build it and they better come if they want to see baseball-
On a historical standpoint, yes, the area is part of the Shockoe Valley and Tobacco Row Historic District through the National Register of Historic Places Inventory and believe Old & Historic through the C.A.R.
Unfortunately much of this area which was houses and businesses many year ago has been torn down except for one in particular which is a concern for this project. The Anson Richards House located at 1710 E. Franklin and built in 1842.
There is also a business Weiman’s Bakery at 127 N 17th which was built in 1854. For the most part the remaining structures were built in the early 20th century.
I can’t imagine that the Richards house in particular would be torn down without some opposition? It is currently owned by the Democratic Party of Virginia.
@40 urbngrilla and 44 Eric, last I remember Style (or some other publication) noted that Salomonsky and a partner or two or three had bought the Loving building in the middle of the bottom, near the market. Not the one that burned down, the other one. As I recall, the issue that was published was that the had bought it but not recorded the sale at that time. Perhaps one of you can add to that, thanks.
@42: It won’t change their minds at all.
I have also since seen that only a portion of the property is owned by the Lovings.
Last I checked we already have a stadium. That one doesn’t really benefit the neighborhood, what makes anyone think that this one will help Shockoe Bottom? As far as traffic goes, good luck trying to get to MCV during a game. Also, everyone seems to be ignoring that on any given Friday or Saturday night there is a lot of traffic, mostly from the bars, that will definitely clash with the stadium crowd. Can anyone show me a valid study that shows where stadiums help a neighborhood? Stadiums serve only to drain resources including tax dollars from the area they take over. The only ones who benefit are the ones pouring concrete and the guys getting kickbacks to let them do so. And Whole Foods isn’t coming either.
Further digging found the law firm of Kaplan Voekler Cunningham & Frank, PLC at the Anson Richards House which was also 1708 E. Franklin. They will be moving into the newly renovated (and it looks great) building next to LaDifference (the old These Four Walls store) at 101 N 14th.
With them moving and the building owned by a state political party – along with seeing the Luncheonette Restaurant on 18th which was supposed to have opened by now but looks not to happen, are “signs” of the prep for the changes?
Ramzi
As how many bars are along Broad Street? I think this project is trying to make the area more up-scale and “encourage” dives to move on. There is Main Street which is a main thoroughfare and you can pick up the Interstate several places besides 14th Street. Leigh Street is an access to MCV and up till 1970 there was a Viaduct that ran downtown on Marshall also going straight into MCV (maybe rethink rebuilding?) but Leigh was built to replace it in 1976. If you absolutely have to go 14th Street, plan ahead. Also games don’t last all day long so I am sure emergency vehicles will have alternate route if people don’t obey the law to move out of the way. Traffic jams should only occur for a few minutes as people show up and after the game.
Not really a fan of the move, I think the current location is better, but I could be convinced. I think the plans at the Boulevard concern me as much or more, reeks of big box suburbia to me. One of the greatest things about our city is the lower number of giant chains in the city limits until recently, thanks VCU.
This is great news. Can’t wait for construction to begin!!
I think in the long run this plan will be great for the area. Bring more attention and money for historical sites and preservation, public transportation Amtrak and Main Street Station, revitalization of first floor businesses on Broad St between 14th and Belvedere Sts. I don’t like how it is being done at all, with shady dealings and buying up all the properties first then announcing the plan
17th St market will improve with it, as well as property values in Church Hill and Union Hill. Anything that focuses on redevelopment of a city center over suburban spread is a move in the right direction. Increase in property values leads to improvement of the tax base and better schools and other services.
@Ramzi-
The ballpark, in and of itself, is not a revenue generator for the city but we should look beyond that to discover the true benefits of it being built.
Currently, the proposed area is a wasteland and generates small amounts of tax revenue for the city.
It will take a large-scale project of this magnitude to address the city infrastructure problems to manage the flood plain. It would be cost prohibitive for any small project to ever build there due to these issues. It’s going to have to be a BIG, all encompassing project to tackle the problem once and for all. The flood problems are why you see nothing there right now. The stadium will serve to clean up the area and make it visually appealing. The other businesses going in will be the economic generators for the city-the grocery store (improves the LIVE desirability of the area) The hotel keeps people in the area all the time frequenting the restaurants in the area. It will also provide jobs- WORK) The residential component improves population density to support these businesses as well. An office building with some heavy-hitting tenants would also be a nice economic boost for this area too. Shockoe Bottom has never had an issue attracting start up business. It’s been difficult for them to hang on due to lack of patronage largely created by image and perception issues (run down, high crime,etc).
This project takes a big swath of the Bottom and cleans it up all at once. This will attract more people to the area and have a ripple effect on the neighboring businesses. They’ll all step up the game and with more patronage, they’ll be able to do so. Comparing this project to what is and was on the Boulevard is not a good comparison. The Diamond has NOTHING around it…maybe three or so restaurants- none very walkable. The facility does not create a destination-type of environment. The Bottom could-very easily.
Freeing up the acreage on the Boulevard to retail development is just smart business. Currently, city residents leave in droves daily to shop in the counties. Why? Because, there isn’t a place in the city for them to shop. Willow Lawn, Stony Point and The Shops at Stratford Hills are technically in the city but closer to the counties- The Boulevard gets retail closer to the core where density is increasing and a need for services exist. Does anyone have any stats on the revenue loss by city residents shopping in the counties? I’d be interested in seeing both sales and property tax data and assumptions. I’ll bet those dollars would do wonders to help Richmond improve schools and neighborhoods.
We have much to appreciate with both Lowe’s and Kroger being brave souls to pioneer and operate in the core. Kudos to them. I know they have challenges (big shortage issues) but the volume they produce is still smart business for the companies.
I have never heard of a stadium-centered development that is publicly funded being a net win for the city or its residents.
I wonder if the city has checked into the effect those promised big box stores might have on other businesses in the city–not just small businesses, but other competitors? What is the chance that a Target or other store at Boulevard would lead to closings elsewhere in the city, and what would be done with those empty spaces?
@54 – agree wholeheartedly on both points. Sadly, Richmond never does anything without someone well connected getting their pockets lined. I’d love to see them use eminent domain here and make the case that the price paid for the land is the value it’s worth. When developers gobbled up land in anticipation of this, they should get their money back and nothing more.
Well put Laura. I think a piecemeal approach to the Bottom is doomed to fail and you are correct that this is big enough and bold enough to tip the scales.
I am a Northside resident in favor of this project because I want to see retail on Boulevard. EVERYONE I know goes to Target. These are jobs just GIVEN to Henrico and tax dollars just GIVEN to the Henrico schools. Let’s build the city smart so that we can move forward.
We are talking about minor league baseball. Y’all really think people are going to be buying season tickets for decades to come watch minor league baseball? No.
I would love to see a couple of big box stores in the city. I agree with Doug and Laura. I shop at Target – but every time I do, my tax dollars go to the county of Henrico. Why not have a few of these stores in the city? I don’t think the Bottom, though, is a good place for them. Too small.
@ 57 and 60… Target would be a nice thought but, I think its too late for that now. Target has a location at Broad and Libbie which is probably just a bit over a mile away as the crow flies. They also have a location at Staples Mill which is **close** by retail standards in a metro the size of Richmond. Unfortunately, the only Target in city limits is on Forest Hill Ave. bordering Chesterfield. Lots of Target tax bucks going to Henrico, Chesterfield and Hanover. Now that Target has saturated metro Richmond, it’s unlikely that any more will open. A real possibility though is Walmart. West of the city, the nearest Walmart is on Parham and a new development at Reynolds Crossing about 5 miles away. Likewise, to the north, Walmart is on Parham–several miles away from the Boulevard. I’d lay money that Walmart would be a strong contender for the Boulevard. This would be a BIG revenue generator for the city with their sales doubling to tripling those of an average Target Store.
@61. Over 6,000 people on average attend every Squirrels game. Are you kidding me? Regardless, of how you feel about the Squirrels league stature, those #’s are pretty darn good by most standards.
Who said a Shockoe ballpark is publicly funded? We should have open minds until the details are set forth.
I just cannot believe the mayor is moving forward on this ridiculous plan when polls have shown that most city dwellers don’t want this (nor are we the ones that generally attend games). If these games start at 6pm then people will be heading to the stadium anywhere from 5-6pm just in time for rush hour. Broad street is already horrible during rush hour. We don’t need more cars on the road at that time (especially 6,000 cars since it sounds like that is the average attendance rate). I want to know what is going to be done about the traffic? And what about when the stadium goers all leave? It’s already clear that they come from the counties so what does that mean? They will all be getting onto 95 from Broad. That exit cannot handle that kind of traffic. Is there a plan to expand that ramp? I can’t see how since MCV sits on one side and the train tracks/ slave burial ground sit on the other side.
My final note- I love how those who are in support of the stadium seem to be contradicting themselves- some say they are happy it’s off Boulevard so that Boulevard can be developed and bring in tax revenue than others make the claim that the stadium in the bottom will bring in development and tax revenue. Can’t have it both ways folks. Either the stadium is good for development/ tax revenue (which there are PLENTY of examples across the country of this NOT being the case) or it isn’t. Make up your minds.
Can anyone tell me why a baseball field is needed to accomplish growth in the fastest growing neighborhood in the City? The other pieces to this proposal we happen with or without baseball. Why add the cost, the environmental risk, the insult to a large portion of our City, and the traffic?
45- the poll your referring to was broken down by region and city of Richmond. 78% of those polled in the region are against baseball in the bottom. 68% of Richmond citizens are against basball in the bottom. Overwhelming majoritys.
… And please- before anyone says that poll is irrelevant because the plan was not know. It’s the same plan with a few tweaks (as stated in Style and RTD) that failed twice before. It’s so funny reading some of these comments in favor- not all but many- to be premeditated and orchestrated support of this plan. The City, Venture Richmond (who will benefit immensely), the developers pocketing huge cash from this, the land owners (which are the same group that pitched this the last two failed attempts), and the contractors who will see nice fat pay checks all shook in their boots when they read that poll from the RTD. They paused, ran out and hired the Alliance a Group (kudos on the detective work #40) and are orchestrating ‘support’ for this plan. I’m not saying there isn’t a minority of smart people in favor of this- but there will be a very concerted effort to faux mass support.
Ugh, it just feels like our City stepped into the Washington divisive culture of pitying one side against another, my way or no way, all or nothing sleeze public opinion snow job.
@Richmond2015 #67
Because nothing else can pay for the flood access infrastructure to anything proposed In the 40 to 50 underdeveloped acres. Nothing can go in those acres until something brings flood access. If something can pull double duty as flood access, then the acerage can be developed. The only thing that can do that? A ballpark.
@69 Exactly right, Nearby Neighbor.
I think this plan is less about the ballpark than finding some way of developing that area of Shockoe Bottom. Apparently, you can only build there if you upgrade the foundations with expensive flooding-related improvements. That’s why the Mayor and others propose something big (like a stadium) that they believe will bring in enough money to pay for the flood-plain upgrades.
Is there any other development that could possibly cover those costs? If anybody knows of one, please suggest it.
If not, then the choice is to either opt for the ballpark or leave the area as is, right?
69- why wouldn’t a park do the same thing? A public park would use less land because you won’t need the same footprint for parking, bleachers, utilities, locker rooms and access. Cost millions less because you won’t need to add the above mentioned amenities nor have to clean it after every heavy rain, hurricane, or flooding to maintain a professional level sports field for play or adhere to a set game schedule where every game lost is money lost. Using the similar methods used in Houston, TX, San Jose,CA, or Rotterdam you could achieve the same protection you claim only a baseball field will achieve.
My point is this: Some kind of open space or public park would provide equal or greater flood control to the few acres that have flood restrictions (a small portion of the land in the mayors proposal- anyone can read a FEMA map), cost millions less, use less land – leaving more valuable real estate for everything in the mayors plan -mixed use, grocery store, apartments, and a museum, be more attractive, more sustainable over the long run, while increasing our tax base. Everybody wins; new baseball field in one of the other locations the Mayor promised he would consider and evaluate, increased funding to the coffers, more people downtown, beautiful new park for the fastest growing neighborhood in the City, a greener city, and a chance to investigate and honor the history of the area.
Richmond 2015-
In order for anything to be developed in that spot, the city infrastructure must be addressed as it relates to Shockoe Creek (under the parking lots). Otherwise, the area may flood again. It would be financially unfeasible for companies such as Kroger and Hyatt Hotels to build there and address these issues. They just can’t fix the area under their property, the entire zone must be addressed, The only way to get this done will be public/private cooperation and building a large scale development to address the area as a whole. The revenue generated here will offset the cost of the improvements over time.
On another note, Kroger’s presence in the Bottom will most certainly be a death sentence for Farm Fresh unless it gets a reinvention. That spot would make a perfect Trader Joe’s in terms of size required.
I heard on the news this morning that a Kroger was going in at the site. A huge plus for anyone in the bottom or on the hill. MUCH better than the Market at Tobacco Row.
Laura- I agree. But that doesn’t change or nullify my suggestion that a park – designed as parks all over the world to manage flooding- built as a private/public partnership would accomplish what your suggesting only a ball park will do. Yet, a park, would cost a fraction of the proposed 80 million dollars suggested in the Mayors Plan, use less land, be more attractive, sustainable, and provide an equal or greater return to the public coffers.
Fairly detailed description of the project is up on T-D site now. This thing looks awesome.
After the Missus and I went for a walk around the proposed area yesterday, I was struck by just how underutilized it currently is. This plan should give people a critical mass of nice stuff to make them want to come down to the Bottom. And those of us in the Hill get to reap a lot of benefits while still remaining fairly residential.
This is going to be huge for our property values.
@Richmond2015 #71 – Respectully, you are missing the flood infrastructure concept enitrely. To build down there, you literally have to build a bridge from the “dry side” into the floodplain that a fire engine and an ambulance can drive over to each building with mixed use residential, the bridge deck at being at all times above the high water mark. Such a bridge is too expensive to be at the sole public expense. What else could double as such a bridge?
Also, a park is totally inconsistant with the busy, merchantile, commercial character the Bottom has had since pre-Columbian times.
@74 – do you understand how taxes work? If we spend $100 to get $200, it’s a lot better than spending nothing to get nothing. The park you are suggesting would be filthy and unused until that part of the bottom has something to draw folks in.
Why don’t you give it a rest for a bit, read the article with an open mind and then walk around the bottom for a bit. Stop and look at how little is in that spot right now. Then look at all the storefronts surrounding the area that are underutilized also.
There are flaws with the plan (chief among them is the likelihood that Lou Salmonella makes a quick buck for speculating) but it’s miles ahead of anything else that would go in here.
Just a quick note that on the plans shown in this morning’s front page, the house on Franklin Street is spared. Also don’t put a lot of faith in what you see in the sketch. These rarely are fulfilled and often fall well short of the “plans”. have seen so many artist renderings being changed after announcements or never built.
Can someone though tell me where in the heck the Exxon is going though? I don’t seem to see it on the photo. We still need it especially being right off the Interstate and being well used.
Shockoe ballpark plan to top $200 million in investment
http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/minors/baseball/flying-squirrels/shockoe-ballpark-plan-to-top-million-investment/article_b462e898-d3f0-5abf-86ad-63a0a3e21d80.html?TNNoMobile
My concern is the failure to openly consult with all Richmonders, not just the landowners and the Chamber of Commerce. This consultation with the public would involve evaluating different development options with the public for both the Boulevard and the Bottom, and the relative pros and cons for each including economic development, financing, tax return, historic preservation, traffic, placemaking etc. Instead, a deal has been worked out entirely in private and may be presented today as a fait accompli, much like the Redskins deal.
This is not how I’ve seen jurisdictions in Northern Virginia plan major redevelopment initiatives – where developers, landowners, the city, non-profits, civic associations and the general public all roll up their sleeves together, put all the information and alternatives on the table and arrive at a plan that gains overall support. The approach to decision-making by the city risks failing to objectively consider all factors, fails to tap the depth and diversity of knowledge within the community, and sows disillusionment among citizens who feel left out of some of the most important decisions about their city.
http://wtvr.com/2013/11/11/richmond-shockoe-stadium-plan-preview/
“Can someone though tell me where in the heck the Exxon is going though? I don’t seem to see it on the photo. We still need it especially being right off the Interstate and being well used.”
Eric- Hopefully, nowhere in that area! The Exxon doesn’t belong on Broad St. Maybe it can be tucked behind the streetscape on one of the side streets.
Just as I feared. The historical character of 17th, 18th, and Franklin are going to be destroyed. I heard the argument that most of those building are not contributing because they are “only” roughly 100 years old. In this drawing I see something that makes no attempt to blend in, let alone embrace the history of the region. I refuse to buy the argument that the character is essentially meaningless because the buildings are only a century old. The old plan did a respectable job attempting to find that balance. Will we be excited about this design in 50 years, let alone 100? A design with a long range focus will get my approval.
Will he claim that it is part of the 25th Street corridor?
Alex –
You say this is going to be “huge” for our property values and I hope you are right. Do you by any chance have a link to a study that shows the impact similar projects elsewhere have had a surrounding residential neighborhood home values?
@Stewart Schwartz #81,
From a design perspective, this project conforms to all of the best practices principles of smart growth. Why aren’t you saying that? Also, you know perfectly well that the existing political landscape of the Richmond region does not support the process you propose, mainly because of deeper NIMBY culture than anywhere in NoVa.
@Left of the Hill #84,
The character of the Bottom has always been one of a busy, urban, mixed area, even when it was a Native American trading post. The swaths of parking lots dotted with 3 or 4 abandoned buildings define the current character of the Bottom contrary to its history. This proposal is closer to what the character the Bottom has always been, and should be, than anything.
Alex- I understand very well how taxes work. I’m suggesting building a public park with the bridge -Next Friend suggested I don’t understand- but without the field infrastructure surrounding it. I would suggest you Alex and Next Friend take a breath, slow down and do some research into how Cities in the United States and Across the world have built parks to manage flood plains for development purposes. Check out Houston, Palo Alto, or event the DC Mall flood management project. They are all available online for your reading pleasure. You still get to build your Hyatt, you still get o build your grocery store, you still get to build your mix use apartment building- but with a smaller footprint than a baseball complex, that in turn adds land for additional apartments, additional mixed etc… This is not rocket science, its called flood plain management with public private partnerships- it happens all over the country, all the time. You can apply that principal and methodology with a 20 million public park rather than 80+million dollar baseball field.
Look, you can drink the Venture Richmond, Alliance Group, City cool-aid and try to convince the majority of people against this that baseball is the only way to open up development bottom that are currently restricted but thats simply not the case. The redevelopment plan will add to the already growing bottom and a flood management designed public park can more than handle FEMA development restrictions and open up the rest of the area.
Look at the plans, and superimpose the same over what land is public, and what land is private. You will find that the “non” or “net-negative” generating ballpark is placed predominantly on the public land, the income generating structures on private land…so basically, the land owned by the citizens is being wasted to make Salomonsky, the Lovings family and other developers very rich on their properties at public expense.
You won’t find the ballpark north of Broad there, because the private interests aren’t stupid…but the City has a long history of wasting our public lands for private interests…and even paying them for the favor (Redskins)!
Remember – the public land is held in trust for us all. We should expect a better return on our investments!
Ray,
Are you asking because you think otherwise or because you’re too lazy to google it?
This might be a bit dense for some to follow but it’s a good summary of some of the academic studies done on stadium impacts on nearby neighborhoods.
http://college.holycross.edu/RePEc/spe/FengHumphreys_PropertyValues.pdf
While there’s no one size fits all model, the general theme is that having a stadium will make that area more desirable at the expense of other areas nearby. So most likely we win, the Fan / Ginter Park lose value. However, their losses should be offset in this scenarios since they get new stores nearby.
Looking at the stadium is only part of the picture. Today those blocks are doing NOTHING for any of our home prices. They’re filled with decaying and vacant buildings that reinforce the “gritty” stereotypes that many prospective buyers have of downtown. Replace those with a decent grocery store and some other businesses and we’ll turn a negative into a positive.
I’d expect the ballpark itself to be worth 3-5% on values and the additional businesses / removal of sketchiness to add an additional 5%. Then there’s the quality of life values of having a decent grocery that we can walk to.
#81 Stewart Schwartz
I like the idea of baseball in Shockoe Bottom, having experienced the renaissance brought about in Durham. You make a good point about the process, but I have never seen so much anti-cooperation as I have in Richmond. People are so entrenched in their opinions that they simply cannot fathom alternatives. This goes for big ideas like baseball to very small ones like coffee shops. I would enjoy learning from your experiences elsewhere. NOVA seems to work things out. Richmond seems to be stuck in its own mire and not know how to get out and do things differently.
Ray- What Alex doesn’t appear to give credence to is the growing number of studies from organizations- other than those who want to push building baseball stadiums are showing that the economics of sports stadiums are highly risky and rarely generate economic benefits. You don thane to look far to see proof of that- Redskins Park- generated no net gain in retail receipts. Otherwise you can look here;
http://tinyurl.com/bml96g4- The Atlantic’s look at the fares of sports arena.
There is all a well done book about the boondoggle of stadiums. I’ll look for the name. If you google the benefit of stadiums you will find studies by City’s that show some benefits- unfortunately they are usually in the process of convincing their constituents to support a new field.
Richmond2015–are you officially associated with Richmond2015-the-bike-race or just using the name unofficially? I’m curious because if the actual 2015 folks are against baseball as a revenue generator, that would be interesting to know.
And this is exactly what I was afraid of. People cherry picking studies they don’t understand to make their point…
@93 – let’s use your study for discussion here. Can you give me some context about the Glendale area where the stadium was built before and after? How well developed was it beforehand, and how well positioned was it to capture spillover benefits? In other words, is it a relevant data point for this discussion?
I will agree with you on Redskins training camp and the current Diamond not having any economic benefit for their surrounding neighborhoods. However, the problem is that neither has “nearby” businesses to benefit. Where are the restaurants near Redskins park that people can walk to? Close driving doesn’t count. Once people get in their car, the spillover benefits evaporate. Neither park is part of a walkable district.
It’s because of this flaw that many suburban stadia have flopped. Many studies have accounted for this by including variables to capture the type of location that the stadium is built in. In urban settings, stadiums have done quite well for the most part. In suburbia, they’ve been largely underwhelming.
By the way, WTF is happening in Richmond in 2015?
#87 Next Friend
I didn’t comment on design because right now the focus should be on the need for a better public process. Design, transportation, economics, alternatives, all need to be weighed. Good public process is a core principle of smart growth.
#87 Next Friend and #93 Juliellen
There are plenty of very strong opinions in other localities as well, but that doesn’t mean you shy away from a good public process. Lay out all of the information and alternatives, let people share their ideas, debate. You may still not get consensus but ideas and different solutions get vetted. Ultimately elected officials must make the decision, but their decision will have come after a democratic process. Even if some people disagree with the final decision, they will not feel disenfranchised.
Just so everyone knows, the Hyatt and Kroger won’t be at the stadium location and I’m assuming the writer means Oliver Hill Way since 17th St doesn’t cross Broad St? The space it sounds like they are referring to is right where the exit ramp from I95N comes into the city. I hope they will make it easier to get to that area than it would be now? I’m also assuming the brick building they’ve been demolishing over there is part of the site. Since these are 2 separate areas, I hope they build the grocery store first.
From RTD article-
“The development would encompass 10 to 12 acres on both sides of East Broad Street. On the south, the ballpark and adjoining apartments would lie between Broad and East Franklin and East 18th and Ambler streets. The additional apartments, hotel and grocery store — in a single complex — along with the parking garage would lie north of Broad on the west side of 17th Street and just beyond Clay Street.”
@Richmond2015
I see your point, but this isn’t about the ball park as a standalone revenue generator. I do believe that the improved infrastructure (lighting, sidewalks, re-do of the 17th street market) will improve the quality of life in the Bottom. With so much investment in the area, the city will make safety in this area a top priority. In time, the area may regain the reputation of being a great entertainment district as it was becoming before Gaston struck in 2004. As an investment, the park alone will be a failure, even with the associated Kroger, hotel and future apartments coming along for the ride. This is about creating swath of land along I-95 between the Fan District and the Northside with multi-big box anchored retail. This is where the whole deal will eventually prove to be a net revenue generator. I’d love for baseball to stay on the Boulevard because I live in the Fan and can walk to the games, but that’s not going to happen.
We live in a locked city, we shelter the region’s homeless, we provide services for the region’s poor and all the while we pay real estate taxes that in some cases double those that our neighbors foot just across the county lines. And those counties, are they contributing anything here for the new ballpark?
Boondoggle or not, it’s going to happen this time.
I should have used another log in- In no way shape or form am I associated with the amazing work being done over at the 2015 effort. It’s actually the first username I picked when this baseball idea resurfaced after two previously failed attempts because I wanted to highlight the need to re-focus our City’s efforts from AA baseball to the 2015 event.
And Alex’s question about WTF is happening in 2015 is EXACLY my point. The largest bicycle event in the world is coming to Richmond in 2015 and n one knows it. We have dedicated the entire economic development community workforce to pushing a flawed (in my opinion) baseball proposal all the while no one knows World Road Cycling Championships are coming to Richmond in Fall of 2015 and the City is wasting time.
http://richmond2015.com
Laura, that Exxon is always busy – including by me that pass by it every morning to work. I refuse to use the Citgo on Main. I have been using the Exxon for the past 14-years with no problems but the one time their system was down and I was forced to fill up with Citgo, I ended up with a $2,000 car repair bill from it destroying my fuel pump that also caused other issues.
With the 2008 plans the Exxon was going where the Hyatt is being built now. I also see that the plans to incorporate existing business fronts to fit in historically are thrown out the window.
clay st resident… some maps shows Oliver Hill Way as 17th Street which may be what they are going on?
Alex, I have always said that Richmond is way too timid, too ultra-conservative for its downtown area. That they should catch up with other cities and to hell with “height” restrictions. Where are those 50-story buildings we were promised? 🙂 One sitting in the middle of downtown – even Shockoe, will not obstruct any kind of view.
Of course any “historic” buildings need special consideration or relocated. We will loose the bakery building built in 1854 but the 1853 building next to it is already gone. Some of the past that witnessed the Civil War – a major part of Richmond’s history. If the city is not going to preserve historic buildings but tear them down then they should go for the ultra modern “bigger is better” city and not some puny pre-fab pancake buildings.
It has been interesting to read the comments on the Shockoe ballpark proposal here.
Would request however, that anyone who comments not use a pseudonym but their names in posting. If you do not have the courage of your convictions, why should a reader have faith in them? Perhaps there might then be more courtesy as folks share alternative perspectives?
Jean- Thanks for the advice. I have very good reasons for using the anonymous post option. Please respect my decision to do so and I’ll respect yours.
@Jean #104, I agree with Richmond2015 #105, especially since good friends’ houses were egged after they gave public, but moderate and measured, comments during the last neighborhood harumph.
Gene- I hope you start feeling energized to fight this plan again and keep baseball on the boulevard.
Why can’t the big box retailers that will be courted for the boulevard be asked to join in a private/public partnership to help pay for a new AA ball field? In the same vein, why can’t Kroger, the Hyatt, The White Brothers and the felon all join the City in making the park work?
If not, then may well be us in a few years..
http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/31/taxpayers-on-the-hook-for-gwinnett-ga-ba
@99 – and now that I know, I still don’t get why you’re so excited about it. Bike races are a terribly boring spectator sport.
#96 Stewart Schwartz, I agree with you that the process has not gone that way. Baseball in Shockoe Bottom has been discussed for years, and although the process is flawed, this has not come out of nowhere. Hopefully from here on out, the process will improve. We shall see…
@107 – again with the flawed comparisons. I don’t think anyone is arguing that every ballpark project is a great idea. There’s been a lot of areas that have made awful investments in stadia that didn’t pay off.
Gwinnett was an especially bad choice because it’s right in the backyard of a major league team so it’s hard to justify going to see minor league baseball when the big leagues are 20 minutes away. It’s also a bedroom community with nothing to catch the ripple effects of the park.
Ballparks that have paid off generally tend to be in downtown areas that are underutilized before. See Durham, Denver, Memphis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh and other places where the park is part of a cohesive city instead of just jammed in a field on the edge of town. In fact, several studies have shown that the ballpark impact can range from negative to positive depending on city/suburban location.
@Richmond2015…so as I understand it, you are all for the bike race because it produces revenue, even though its only two weeks? But not the baseball even though it is long-term? I’m trying to understand, is all (not attacking or anything–I don’t live in Church Hill or Shockoe so I really have nothing in this game other than interest)
I’m all for the bike race because I really like bike racing. I’m eh about baseball, but I’ve seen it shine in Durham and spark a real revitalization there.
#107…something must be in the water:
http://mlb.si.com/2013/11/11/atlanta-braves-moving-ballpark-cobb-county/
Alex- I’m not sure your familiar with Greater Atlanta or if you googled the locations- its actually about an hour away (37-38 miles) from the Atlanta Braves. Traffic in Atlanta is some of the worst in the country and I have made that trip before. In addition, on big difference is Gwinnett is AAA not AA (like the Squirrels). AA is one small step out of college baseball while AAA actually gets real MLB players occasionally. Without a doubt, real baseball happens at the AAA level, entertainment happens at the AA level. i.e. AAA= more fans. Finally, it demonstrates the dangers and risks of minor league baseball. If the Giants organization decides to move all of its minor league franchises a little closer to California (imagine that) they may pull up and leave whenever they want- regardless of the contractual agreements. It cost a lot of money to fly back and forth from California.
So with any risks, why should we invest 80million plus for the chance that we get something in return? Why not drop some millions on something that is guaranteed to deliver benefits for generations to come? What the heck does the Mayor mean by saying its the best AA baseball field in the country! Thats like saying LoveRVA: Because we invest your tax dollars in kinda-sorta- meh- projects.
Juliellen- I dont pretend to know how we should divvy up the funds from the selling off of public lands- land that citizens of Richmond own and deserve to have a say wether they are sold or not and for what purpose they will be used. Once sold, it will take miracles to get back- look at Mayo Island. I’m quite certain that investment in making our town ready for 2015 is desperately needed. I’ll use Portland as an example. Portland spent $40 million- half the public cost of the Mayor’s baseball field – to add bike specific amenities in the late 90’s (I think I have the date wrong and please remember inflation). Today, Portland is forever transformed and is known as one of the coolest City’s in the country, most walkable and rideable, and constantly rates as a top 5 City to live in. There is a book on the process Portland went through to become 1st tier but I can’t recall the name (Alex is going to ding me on that). I honestly do not think spending two or three times as much on AA baseball, a single use stadium, almost-professional team is going to change our reputation as the little City that could. If anything, it will emphasis and cement our status as a second tier City. Heck, its what our Mayor is claiming to be the best at right?
“Ballparks that have paid off generally tend to be in downtown areas that are underutilized before. See Durham, Denver, Memphis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh and other places where the park is part of a cohesive city instead of just jammed in a field on the edge of town. In fact, several studies have shown that the ballpark impact can range from negative to positive depending on city/suburban location.”
Tell that to Atlanta, Alex. The Braves announced today that they are moving their stadium… to the county.
LOL- #107
thats even further away! Maybe Alex was right, too close for comfort. Or the Braves (one of the most successful and valuable franchises in baseball) aren’t reading Alex’s studies. 😉
The Braves are moving out and the Squirrels are moving in!
Gotcha!!!!
#108 – “Bike races are a terribly boring spectator sport.” Maybe here but not in the Alps, or on the cobblestones, for example. And, baseball easily falls into the category of watching paint dry. There is more excitement in Peewee and Little League.
Remember, we’re not going to have the Boston Red Sox move to the Bottom.
The Braves move is a head scratcher and one that I suspect will make the list of poor returns for municipalities some years from now. They have one of the worst fan bases in pro sports too.
I’m in favor of bike trails but don’t think it has to be an either or thing. Same for a river walk. If we can just start moving on some of these projects instead of getting mired in bullshit and NIMBYism every time a proposal comes up, we could probably have all of them.
This is basically the same proposal they tried to shove down our throats the last time. It is corporate welfare courtesy of the taxpayers. The same developers want the same freebies–and the same TIF financing. The ‘T’ in TIF stands for ‘tax’. The way it works is the taxpayers pick up the tab if the project fails. And if it succeeds, they get nothing.
But what are the odds of the stadium failing? Look at the city’s shameful track record: 6th Street Marketplace, Valentine Riverside, Main Street Station, and so forth. The last time the city launched a successful development was, well, never. Would you bet your tax dollars on a ballpark in a drainage basin? I wouldn’t. Richmond is not in a position to subsidize wealthy developers in a casino gamble.
Agreed Alex. It may not seem like it because the conversation is all about where to put baseball. But had the Mayor not picked the most controversial site for playing ball we would be having a very different conversation. Lots of hugs and drinking beer!
I wish we could have it all : bikes, baseball, a better bottom and blvd, river improvements, hotels, big box retail but it’s not feasible. I wish I could get a few more b’s but oh we’ll.