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City unveils development proposals for Shockoe, Boulevard
Today the City Administration unveiled the result of a nearly year-long procurement process to develop two large tracts within the City at North Boulevard and Main Street Station.
The Main Street proposal includes a major economic development “town center” project with a possible solution for a new ballpark.
City Chief Financial Officer Harry Black said, “This is a vision of where the City can go. It is a chance to build two enormous economic engines that will generate new revenues and help power our City to better things.
“It is a vision of what is possible with careful planning, an engaged and informed public, and local ownership. It is a shared vision to make the City better and deliver on our potential. This has been a vision created not by rushed speculation, but by careful and deliberative procedure.”
Black, along with City Economic Development Director Carthan Currin and Highwoods Properties executive Paul Kreckman unveiled the plans calling for a $420 million mixed-use retail, commercial and residential development at the 67-acre Boulevard site.
Black said all of the proposals submitted by developers interested in the Boulevard project had suggested that baseball was not an economically viable solution for the property and suggested it be located elsewhere.
The Main Street Station proposal calls for a $363 million high-density, mixed-use, transit-oriented development that includes office space, two hotels, apartments and condominiums, retail, and a proposal for a ballpark, as well as protecting the cultural and historic importance of the area honoring the Slave Trail.
The Main Street Station area has received $394 million in federal, state and City investment in infrastructure in recent years to help address stormwater issues and position Main Street Station as the State’s rail hub and future home for high-speed rail.
You can view renderings of the proposal and other documents at the following web address: www.RichmondsMayor.com
That rendering is missing the interstate. Where are they going to put I-95?
If you look at the website i95 is included in the drawings
We will not need an interstate, because all roads will lead to Richmond. Who’d want to leave with all that to do?
The Shockoe plan is by far the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. Office space and condos! What genius came up with that? In case the developers didn’t notice, that area is already surrounded by the same thing, and much of it is vacant. Adding a below-grade ballpark in a floodplain with poor drainage is the icing on the cake. My favorite example of city incompetence was a few years ago when they gave KPMG Marketing $14 million for a study to determine what should be done with Main St Station. Their conclusion? Use it as a train station. Not only is that a ton of money to waste on the obvious, the city never really even followed through and the trains still barely stop there. This is a prime example of why this city is doomed without new leadership. The city, with these new plans, is trying to bring people downtown, yet they can’t even figure out that putting the train station downtown automatically brings people there. So now they want to build a ballpark even though studies show that they do not benefit the community and are in fact economic drains, never mind the fact that we don’t have a ball team. The only people that benfit from an endeavor like this are the guys pouring concrete and the politicians that give them the contracts. Aside from them, everyone else loses. You want to make the city better? Spend some of that money on law enforcement, pump some cash into our education system, then you’ll see some real changes, the kind that last.
You (Ramzi) make a good point in that we’ve gotten way out of whack in our priorities – like 700 billion for Wall St. bankers when funds for Iraq veterans have been shot down by Congress on several occasions over the past few years. What’s that all about?
In fact, why are we spending $10 billion a month in Iraq when we’re sinking in debt and a one time payment of $9 billion will build a high speed rail line connecting Richmond to DC (what kind of impact would THAT have on the Richmond economy). And how ABOUT some funding for teachers, police, rescue, etc.?
That said, I do think a downtown ball park could be cool and finally give Richmond a true city “center” where folks could go for a meal, game, drinks, boutique shopping, gourmet coffee, and raunchy strippers at Velvet afterwards, etc…
They’ll need to address parking and access isssues to pull this one off though. (and given the current economic situation, I’m not sure the timing is the best for a project of this scale)….
I still say they should have put the ballpark on Mayo Island or in Manchester years ago… maybe they could have kept the Braves if they had…[sigh]
The current plan calls for very little city money. Money for infrastructure AND to expand the Main St Station as a … transportation center. Money that would likely never be allocated to teachers or police regardless of if this plan happens.
Ramzi, you make plenty of good points, but you should at least flip through the ppt. they have made available and see everything they plan to include. The ballpark is a small portion of the larger plan that brings private money in for a museum and additional parking, which we have all complained about there not being enough of in Shockoe.
If they can build that gi-normous center out in Short Pump, why can’t we do the same in Shockoe?
Doesnt the bottom already work? Doesnt it have a viable nightlife? Why are they redeveloping an area that makes money instead of one that does not?
…and if anyone was wondering about why the Farmers Market has been dying a slow death, it’s because this ballpark plan has been in the works for some time now, and everybody in the mayor’s office+his pals have known about it.
That includes Salomonsky, the owner of the property under/surrounding the market.
The Farmer’s Mkt will be raised to create the infield in this Shockoe stadium “field of nightmares.”
Now it where did we put those old “no Shockoe stadium” buttons Lee Buffington gave us?
Hmmmm … am I missing the parking lot(s) that will be used to hold all of the cars coming off 95? Wait, maybe we’re supposed to use the subwa …. er, guess we don’t have one of those. Maybe we’re supposed to take buses?
In all seriousness, and I know this won’t fly, they should build underground parking and place the stadium on top of it. The ball field would stay high and dry, the parking decks can easily be cleaned after the next storm, and we won’t have to waste space on flat parking lots where buildings should be.
here we go again……
If you look at the plans you can clearly see the Farmers Market is not replaced by an infield or anything else. It is still there. Take a look before you jump to conclusions – and wrong ones at that.
Chewie- you are right, there is a viable nightlife in the bottom/strip already, but for some reason people are obsessed with bringing families in from the suburbs as some true measure of nightlife success. Here’s a thought, if it’s suburbanites who love this baseball idea so much, put the stadium in the suburbs… and let them pay for it, too. The stadium is not needed for a development to succeed. But, hey, during the next major flood, it’ll be converted into a swimming pool anyway!
Rick- I believe the plan calls for a parking deck to accomadate drivers.
Where as I was against this plan before I say go for it. If most of the funds are coming from private sources then what have we got to lose? I don’t know how many of you have been to the Bottom recently, but with the exceptions being Wonderland, Sumo San, and Rosies, there ain’t much going on except unacceptable behavior spilling out of ridiculous clubs. The Bottom has been losing money and needs something to give it a boost. While I am not the biggest fan of all the bad drivers from the West End and what not spilling into downtown, if they are coming with money in their wallets to give business to our downtown merchants then have at it!
I am a bit skeptical that Richmonders will support another baseball team. In ten years, will this place be just as ignored as the current Diamond has been in the past few years? Plus, they’re already breaking ground on two hotels at the end of Shockoe Slip. Will two more hotels as part of this development saturate the market?
That being said, I would like to point out that they are contributing a museum to the overall development that will be a part of the Slave Trail. HOWEVER, the museum on the site plan is WAY TOO SMALL – it needs to be one of the greater focal points, if not THE focal point of the development. If they can convince the National Slavery Museum (currently undeveloped in Fredericksburg) to relocate back to Richmond and become a part of this development, then they have my support.
I’d also like to see the developers commit to LEED certification and sustainable design with the proposed development. Perhaps they could even daylight part of the underground stream running through Shockoe Bottom and make it another focal point of the development.
Hellooo! The team is gone! Again, Richmond is a day late and a dollar short! I continue to wonder why not raze and rebuild at the Diamond site? It’s a commercial area and has easy on/off access to I-95. Time to get out those old, yellow lawn signs? “No Stadium in Shockoe Bottom!”
Yes! Downtown stadiums can and do spur economic development. It happened in Durham, Indianapolis, Louisville, Memphis, Akron and I can go on and on and on. Right now, there is very little going on in downtown Richmond. This plan will enhance the farmers market and existing businesses will see a boost. Foot traffic will increase. Families will begin to come downtown again. This area could be a vibrant area for all to enjoy. The stadium will replace what is currently an ugly, empty lot, a sketchy Exxon station and several empty buildings. This is mostly private development that will spur economic growth and clean up a part of the city that is currently quite frankly an eye sore. Regardless of whether you like or care about baseball isn’t that better than what’s currently there? I see very little downside to the plan! As a Hill resident I fully support!
Magneto,
I agree. I posted this comment on the River District blog: “We should have a black history museum, a museum of slavery, and a memorial to all the slaves buried in the bottom. Imagine the tours. Some minor league baseball team barely brings in the locals. If you want international attention and tourism, give a true picture of your history.”
Regarding sports: it seems that skateboarding, soccer and basketball are far more popular in Richmond than baseball. Someone suggested we have a skate board park. How about an out door ice skating rink? I like the idea of a sports area open to public use.
Instead of torpedoing the project to begin with why don’t we demand the elements that we think would make it a great project?!
LEED cert/green elements sound like a great addition. Ice skating rink? We don’t play baseball in the winter, why not set it up on the field? The slavery museum is included in the plans, but if it should be bigger, we need to tell them so.
The whole point of the plan is that baseball, minor league baseball in particular, is not a great money maker in most areas. That is why there is many other elements included in this plan to draw people to the area.
I think Ry is on the mark. There will be a lot of public hearings through the Planning and Zoning Committees as well as at City Council. From the comments made by Delores McQuinn, she seems luke warm to the stadium idea, but would definitely favor a Slavery Museum. I think the streetscape drawings along Broad St. at 18th are exactly what should go in that area to promote downtown activity. The true test of this plan will be the details about parking, traffic flow, and alternative transportation. Now would be a good time to make a case for trolley service, downtown, and light rail service from the suburbs into Main Street Station. Whether you are for a stadium, or not, there are many elements of this plan that are good, but we have to get together to make the neighborhood voices heard in the planning so that the impact on the surrounding area is positive.
Its curious that this stadium plan goes against the recommendations in the recently passed Master Plan – or am I mistaken? Wasn’t the plan passed almost unanimously? What was the point of paying all the money and spending all the time to craft the plan?
So, folks are going to invest $400 million for a speculative development anchored by a stadium for some unknown AA baseball team in a city that would not support an established AAA franchise in an economy with no credit, stressed out consumers, and a crashing housing market?
Yep, sounds like a winner to me!
AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN!!!
Voters you need to ask the hard question;
1. Why bring this back now?
2. What was told to voters 4 years ago about a Shockoe Stadium?
3. Do not forget about Echo Harbor?
4. Remember, Richmond start small bush fires to make voters lose focus, while a Forest fire is some where burning out of control
5. Please do your homework before Nov 4th, you maybe very surprise by who stands to gain from all of this. I don’t think it’s going to be the Mayoral candidate with the strongest ties to the business community. May the Lord bless us all?
I am cautiously excited. I think we need to solve several obstacles, such as drainage, but I am not on the “it’ll never work” boat.
If it’s done correctly, this could be good for the Bottom and the surrounding areas too. I think the Bottom has great potential but currently sucks as Richmond’s nightlife central. Bring back Bottom Billiards.
Memphis did a stadium like what has been proposed and it rocks and brings in tons of revenue. Camden Yards in Baltimore has taken the approach of urban stadium (albeit on a much larger scale) and created arguably the best ballpark in MLB…
If parking and access are addressed in the new plan, this thing could be great for Richmond.
I’m not entirely opposed to this plan, but let’s be realistic folks. This is not going to be the magic economic pill that Richmond is hoping for.
Most sports economists agree that sports stadiums are not the economic booster that their promoters claim they are:
http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html
http://thesportseconomist.com/labels/stadium%20subsidies.htm
Excerpts from thesportseconomist.com article:
“Sports economists agree: sports stadiums are not the boon of economic development that they are often portrayed to be…”
“The development is unlikely to occur because the returns for the development do not justify private investment. Otherwise we’d see a lot more “spontaneous” economic development surrounding stadiums. In other words, the people who frequent stadiums don’t really care all that much about shopping/bars/restaurants/condos etc. around ballparks. They want to go to the event, do what they do there (get their private benefits), get in their cars, and go home. So politicians are seemingly more resistant, thankfully, to giving subsidies just for stadiums by themselves. But package in some secondary development (which, if it draws any extra economic activity to the site, will probably draw it from elsewhere in the region) with the subsidy request and see if you can get the necessary votes.”
#16, I agree with your statement for the most part. However, Memphis is not a good example. The Pyramid was built long before the Grizzlies arrived. A much better example would be Nashville, and the Titans. These same old tired arguments against a stadium were the exact same ones made in Nashville regarding the former Oilers before they arrived. For all you without the benefit of vision, please know so much more can be done with a baseball stadium besides just hosting minor league baseball games.
#26:
We know that stadiums can be used for other events, but the Diamond wasn’t used for much else. What/who’s to say that a new stadium will?
Thanks for sharing the articles Hillkid.
#26 If so much more can be done with a baseball stadium, then what is the diamond being used for now? or in the past, during off season, what was it used for?
I can’t believe were talking baseball here. How often did folk on this thread frequent baseball games?
We have to be careful in the development of this area. We don’t want it to become a dusty bowl of concrete. What’s the lifespan of a typical mall or office park? Has there been enough action at the downtown convention centers to justify building it?
I keep thinking 6th street market and main st station mall failures. Over all these years Richmond has yet to gain my trust.
Richmond’s best areas of town will built up gradually by individual visionaries and entrepreneurs.
The city is best in the “museum” department.
When you have a private running a stadium versus a random-quasi-public entity you much more likely to have other events in the stadium. I know the minor league ballpark in Charleston WV hosts the boy and girl scouts for “camp outs” on the field and movie nights.
I think the point of this wholescale proposal is to include enough capacity to create an economies-of-scale that will benefit the project and allow it to build upon itself. Remember the goal is to create a destination local outside of the ballpark.
I just want to say that these comments are terrific. No pulling the wool over anybody’s eyes so easily this time. Having been through this before (I still have my sign from ACORN), I’m waiting to see how it will be funded… how they will deal with the “river” running under the area… what the traffic/parking solutions will be… and if Mayor Wilder will transfer the funds and pledges from his Fredericksburg project to the Museum/ Slave Trail in Richmond (where it all belongs).
The financing scheme looks just like the last stadium proposal – selling bonds to raise the money and putting the taxpayers on the hook.
Brian Bostic won’t tell us who the investors are except to say there are more than 10 of them.
So we’re supposed to build a stadium for a team we don’t have, backed by secret investors, and the taxpayers pick up the tab if it bombs. Richmond can’t afford this casino-style gamble.
Bridg
I’m new to Richmond, so I don’t know all the history of these plans. But I am from Durham and I can tell you that the Durham Bulls Athletic Park (DBAP) has been a wonderful anchor for downtown revitalization in the city. It’s nothing like the Diamond, which is a horrendously out-of-scale and out-of-date stadium in a horrible location.
Now around the DBAP is a national dance center, lots of offices and condos and apartments. More good restaurants are also making an appearance. The American Tobacco Trail begins at the DBAP, too, and has been a great addition to Durham. It’s been a long time for all this activity to happen. It won’t change overnight.
I can’t believe I am saying this, but I think I might support this, if for no reason than to get rid of that miserable Exxon station. I was strongly opposed to the original proposal, but this one has a few merits. My fears: an infestation of developer friendly chain retail (“After the game let’s grab a burger a beer at TGI Friday’s!”), bad design and architecture, traffic/parking, and a loss of local character. I just hope they don’t Disney-fy the area.
We don’t have a baseball team anymore. I know y’all realize this, right? Ludicrous, all the way around. The entire concept of a new stadium is totally disconnected from reality. Lipstick on a pig.
Stop wasting money, Richmond. It’s becoming completely, devastatingly, embarrassing to witness as a citizen. Like buying the shiny new grill at Wal Mart, when you can’t even afford to feed your family meat.
There is no team.
I spoke too soon! I just looked at the newspaper article. How many buildings are they planning to tear down?! It looks like 17th, 18th, and possibly the northern part of Franklin Street are going to be razed for the baseball field. No way! That would destroy the entire character of Shockoe Bottom.
This appears to be a great piece of the pie in the efforts to rejuvenate the entire downtown and riverfront area. The focus is not just on a baseball stadium bringing people down to the Bottom. This is part of a whole grand scheme to make downtown Richmond a great home for some and an exciting destination for others.
If we take in the whole view of: 1) the Canal Walk area which has already been completed along with the new restaurants and updated retail, 2) the in-progress Rocketts Landing and adjoining public marina along the riverfront which finally will bring great new living, restaurants and retail to Richmond’s greatest and most underused asset in the James River, and 3) the proposed Shockoe Center with the baseball, retail, office, living, a Farmer’s market and more……this could make Church Hill and downtown living the envy of Richmond. Have any of us ever felt that Church Hill takes second-fiddle to The Fan as far as access to local restaurants, higher real estate values, and the best of city living? I think we are looking at a tremendous opportunity here if we all just keep our minds open to the big picture and play an active role in the ideas and development of our downtown and Church Hill area.
I swear to God, if you hand-wringing whiners destroy another attempt to make Richmond a first-class city, I’m moving to Annapolis. Maybe it won’t bring back downtown overnight, but this project is so obviously a step in the right direction that I’m embarrassed any homeowner in the immediate radius would even consider standing in the way.
Get over yourselves. We’ve all seen other downtowns. Take a look at Denver, the Inner Harbor, Boston, Alexandria. Shockoe, as it currently stands, sucks.
Yes, we all like Julep’s. Rosie Connolly’s is delightful. But neither of them is endangered by the ballpark plan. What are you trying to protect? Vacant lots of rusted fences and cracked pavement? Tiki Bob’s? Give me a break.
It’s time to crack some eggs and move this city into the 21st Century. Maybe it’ll work, maybe it won’t. But something is better than nothing.
The whole grand scheme might seem more appealing if it didn’t include spending millions of dollars to build a facility for a team that went bye-bye long ago. If the proponents spent their time talking about something feasible, minus the ridiculous, then we might be getting somewhere.
I would like a refund, please, for the amount of money that our confused leaders are being paid to fuss and debate about a stadium – a stadium for a team that now plays for a different city.
They left you, Richmond. Accept the divorce with grace, move on, and focus on something relevent.
Why always with the stadium? What are we going to hold there? Gladiator fights?
Bridg got it right in #32. Let’s put a casino there.
Works for me. Even Atlantic City has a vibrant downtown shopping district. We don’t.
And put the casino on an ark because we are talking about a flash flood zone.
Right on, gray. Let’s stick to museums. I don’t know about you guys, but I can hardly find parking on the weekends thanks to all those massive crowds at the Poe Museum and the Holocaust Museum. What a boon for Tobacco Row! It’s just a madhouse down there!
Omelette, Hey atleast they are still here -can’t say that about the baseball team.
And why should my tax dollars be used as a boon for Tobacco Row? If my tax dollars aren’t going to be used towards forming progressive public schools, then please give me my money back so I can pay for private middle and high schools.
I want to know how city residents will pay off the few hundred million dollars they have to guarantee if the “Shockoe Center” project fails. Richmond can’t even afford to keep the street lights on or fix the sidewalks. But what’s another half billion or so?
Maybe we could add a meals tax surcharge. Oh, that’s right, we already did that, you remember, for the arts center. The restaurant owners are still steaming about it. There’s bound to be something we can tax, personal property, real estate, how about a local tax on gasoline?
But the Shockoe stadium / office park / retail / residential proposal couldn’t fail, could it?
What are the chances of a taxpayer bailout? Since we’re talking baseball, let’s look at the City’s batting average for successful development projects. It’s zero, goose egg, zip. Embarassing though it is, I’ll mention a few past disasters: Sixth Street Marketplace, Valentine Riverside, and Main Street Station as a “discount mall.” I wouldn’t buy a used car from the City of Richmond much less guarantee a half billion dollar loan for a teamless stadium to investors who are in hiding and won’t even tell us who they are.
Bridg
I’m a resident of Church Hill and I fully support this proposal. I couldn’t agree more with Bill Hartsock’s comments. It looks pretty impressive and is far better than what is currently there. Concentrated development of this nature could be the cure for an ailing area. Some chains are not always a bad thing….look at who is ALWAYS busy in the bottom–Buffalo Wild Wings and Stool Pigeons. They have mass appeal and do what they do pretty well. That area really needs these type of businesses to become a more viable draw. Having lived near Fenway Park in Boston for many years, it was well accepted by the neighborhood. And Fenway is right in the middle of an urban neighborhood. It brought quite a lot of revitalization to the surrounding areas. It is an entertainment destination with clubs, upscale pool halls, restaurants, a movie theater, bars and shops all within walking distance and a stone’s throw to a
major university. Come on folks…there are elements of city living that you must like…you live here right? Why not clean it up and have it be successful like so many other cities have proven possible. Why are Richmonders so opposed to any real progress? Do you really think your quality of life would be negatively impacted by this development?
We need to get behind a great looking proposal like this and move forward.
What’s the point in funding “progressive public schools” if families don’t want to live downtown?
No disrespect to our fine fetish community, but I think a nice centralized ballpark and shops will bring in more folks than club Fallout.
Tom, post #11. Ok, so the field starts on Franklin Street, not Main. I GUESS the Farmers’ Market would still stand in this new scenario of a “Bottom make-over”.
Honestly, I made the error b/c the dang-gone map in that PDF is of such low resolution that when you zoom in on it, you can’t make out the street names…it pixilates horribly.
If you are involved in this project, then please provide a more detailed (higher resolution) site plan. Thanks.
This is a pathetic attempt by a washed-up mayor to say that he did something positive. This is very similar to the proposal that was shot down 4 (+/-) years ago. The state historic reasources department hated it, the neighbors hated it and the baseball team hated it… not a great start! If a baseball stadium will bring such wonderful developments to the bottom why didn’t it do anything for the Boulevard?
What I despise most about the plan is the fake building fronts that “hide” the stadium. It is pretending to be short pump —which is pretending to be a city – -like Richmond.
Yes, the Braves left, but that doesn’t mean we can’t look at baseball in Richmond again. The Braves left b/c we stuck them in a eyesore of a stadium, in a sea of concrete. There have already been numerous teams to express interest in Richmond if we are to commit to build a stadium – including the AAA team out of Charlotte (how ’bout we steal something from them for once?).
#50- Those aren’t fake building fronts; they plan to have those as usable sq ft- retail, office, hotel, apts, or condos.
#38- I agree!
That’s nice that someone here lived near Fenway. That must have been really cool! Why? The Boston Red Sox.
Am I missing something? Are we getting a new team? I would love for there to be a good reason that people are still talking about a stadium, even if it makes me look silly and misinformed. I hope this is one of the new things that I learn today, that there is an actual reason for people in this town and on this thread speaking in support of a really, REALLY expensive new stadium.
So am I misinformed? Is there a reason to talk about building a stadium that I don’t know about? Because now I am thoroughly confused as to how some folks here, seemingly intelligent folks that can spell and stuff, are still pledging their support for a venue that we would have no use for. In a flood plain.
Seriously, how can you guys possibly support this? Please expose my, and a few others here, ignorance as to why this is a great idea? What are we missing? Do we have a phantom team? Is this the real live Field of Dreams?
Are these the same people who tell their teenage daughters that if they want to get married, all they gotta do is go ahead and buy the dress?
And is that the way to construct a government budget?
#48, Families want to and do live in the city but their screaming for better schools and more choices not a baseball team.
“they are” not “their”
An example, my older sibling is moving here from Texas and she wanted to live near my family. She looked into the schools and decided to move to the counties. Not at anytime did she ask about our baseball team.
To those of you that are still whining about parking and flooding… don’t you think that the city and the planners of this project would have to take those two major factors into consideration before this plan goes through?!
Honestly, I know our city officials can disappoint at times but when millions of dollars are at stake I believe they will at least try to cover all the bases.
I know I would rather see a new *anything* rather then crummy parking lots. Also, look at the bright side, if this goes through then there is a good possibility that the city will finally repave Broad St. between 14th and 18th. That alone is reason enough for me to vote for this project!
Hey – here’s a proposal for ya…
I’ll personally drum up a collection for the paving of that section of Broad, if it will make people stop talking about building a stadium for a non-existant team, and hoping that the city planners at least “try” to cover their bases. Is this accountability?
Surely that paving could be done for a couple-few thou, instead of multi-millions. So is paving a four block section of road really a motivation for a multi million dollar waste?
With all due respect, and now that I think about it, I realize that you must have been kidding.
What if the stadium was removed from the project? Would you (the CHPN readers) still be against this? Just wondering.
Don’t forget that this is looking 20+ years down the road. And it’s about more than baseball. IF Richmond were to get another team (and that’ll never happen with the existing Diamond), then it might be nice to have that team on this side of town. In the meantime, this plan gets the planners looking at alternatives for the Bottom. I lived down there for my first year in Richmond, and I found it depressing and neglected (yet strangely expensive.)
Baseball aside, I think the focus should be on making the Main Street station a viable multi-modal transportation hub, with connections to downtown and MCV. What are some alternative positive ideas that y’all have for reinvigorating the area?
UHill #49; I used the maps from the press release on the mayors site – http://www.richmondsmayor.com. The resolution wasn’t too bad. You can see the roofs of the stalls still there. I think the plan would help the market incredibly.
As for #52 Shannon, the team will be bought by private investors if the framework for this deal is set. Listen to the hour 2 audio vault on espn950am.com from yesterday. The baseball guys were interviewed and talk about it. If the deal is agreed upon, then they buy the team. If there is no deal, they won’t buy the team. We need local ownership!
I agree with you, Juliellen, about Main Street Station. Totally. And sure, jc. I’m not overposting here just to be disagreeable. 🙂
I would love to see a viable Downtown, as well as a school system that is operational, in even the slightest semblence of the word.
I’m just saying that this is typical Richmond, and the MO needs to change. It’s a broken way of operating. If this were a business, the CEOs would be eating out of trash cans, with this kind of willy-nilly infrastructure. They’d be bankrupt. In this case, this lack of vision and responsibility will bankrupt us, the citizens and taxpayers if we let it. Don’t let it!
Do Main Street Station. But leave any talk of a stadium for a time when there are some true negotiations with another team. How attractive would it be to have a contract that was a sure bet? Then we could build to suit as part of the attraction, and there would not be all of this cart-before-the-horse. Way too much fantasy for a government plan.
Including this stadium is yet another distraction technique, so that they can spend our cash in a bunch of different ways that fail to address what the citizens as a whole really need – good schools, good transportation, a viably vibrant downtown area. Then when they fail to meet the mark, they pass the buck all over the place.
Our local government does this all the time, and I don’t think we should let that happen anymore. If this were any other company and we had to deal with this kind of incompetence, we would absolutely stop doing business with them. It’s a snively way of operating, and it’s unsuccessful.
That stuff makes our city look like a delusional joke, as an entity.
#58 No, I’m not opposed to the area being developed in a responsible manner with a stronger focus on a slavery museum and without using tax dollars to subsidize big commercial business, chains, and corporations.
What if we viewed development like a home housing well made furniture and objects with aesthetic value. Not everything can be purchased overnight and when it is, most of it ends up shabby junk within a decade barely worth a dollar in a yardsale. Look at the various mall and plaza developments around town, ie, cloverleaf, willow lawn, regency, etc. How many folk do you see walking around Stony Point Fashion Park? Notice the empty store fronts.
The area should be developed solidly and responsibly offering culture, transportaion, and the things the neighbors need so we don’t have to drive to the counties.
And add a public garden, ie Tricycle Gardens, to that development.
I need a target!
Okay, Tom. I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for informing us of this. So please tell us why we even need a team. I don’t really understand that.
HB mentioned the roads, several of us have mentioned the schools. Why should having a local team be a budgetary priority? As several have noticed, it’s not like the masses flocked to the Boulevard Stadium.
People try to cite the condition of the Boulevard Stadium all the time, blame that for the lack of interest. I don’t think that’s an accurate analysis. That venue is really not in that bad of shape. Anyway, how many of us have gone to a hole in the wall to see a band we really love? That stadium was underused because baseball is not that big here.
If people were really into baseball in Richmond, they’d be there no matter what. And if there was a consistently full stadium, it would indicate interest and be evidence for the need to upgrade. That is just not the case.
And location is not blameable, either. Kitchen 64 is doing great practically right across the street.
Time to accept.
Gray, I am surprised you are not on board with this development. Yes, money should be invested in neighborhood schools; however, it’s obvious that the schools on this side of town are not a concern for anyone except the families who go there. There are good schools in the city, on the other side of town. Why? Because there are a lot of people there- people to be involved in schools, people to harass the city endlessly until they fund everything they want, and more importantly, people who want to send their kids there.
Maybe once people the Bottom and Churchill become realistic places to live with a family (you know, a place where you don’t have to drive across town for a decent grocery store, or any stores for that matter), families will move here. That is going to force the city to take notice of your schools. Also, the city suddenly has more of an interest in fixing up the schools here because their plans for condos around this development are ultimately going to fail if only people without kids can live there. Is it wrong and unfair for all the families that already live here? Yes, but it obviously is going to take something more than you guys “screaming for better schools.â€
Field of Dreams – Build it and they will come!!! Getting a team will not be an issue…
I think Blvd and Shockoe plans look fabulous!
Now, if we can just work out those little issues like parking, flooding, and a whiny populace that doesn’t *ever* want any type of progress whatsoever…
Wow, what a concept…something downtown that might actually look pretty cool and be a destination…and oh, it surely wouldn’t affect real estate values up on the Hill would it?
Thank you for the poll, John. The results indicate that most of your readers think it is a great idea, no matter how vocal the readers are that oppose this idea.
#66, My kids attended/have attended eastend schools, secondly, I’ve done much more than scream for better schools. Do you have children that attend public schools? Did you know that every end of town has been given a choice school, for example an IB, accelerated, charter, or magnet program with the exception of the east end? Did those areas of town require a baseball stadium to have a specialty school? Prior to Holton elementary school being built, people were fleeing that end of town. Good schools draw in families more than anything else. Ask any realtor.
A Target? Are you kidding me?
Ok, Shannon has made it abundantly clear that she’s not a baseball fan. Fine.
But all I’ve seen for alternative suggestions are “do Main Street station,” a slavery museum (perhaps we should steal it Carmen Sandiego-style from Fredericksburg), and, yes, gardens.
Look, the recent growth in urban areas has been fueled by recent college grads and empty-nesters who want to get back to the city and away from god-forsaken sprawl. Obviously good schools should be a priority too, but we need to start getting people back downtown and out of suburbia. We can do both. You guys don’t sound like progressive city-dwellers, you sound like the flat-earth Republicans in the House of Delegates. Let’s think big here.
I’ve given Richmond chance after chance because it always seems like it’s just about to turn a corner and become a great city. This is a big, grandiose idea. That’s what we need.
Mike – say we get a team, by some kind of magic. Who is going to attend the games? You and your friends? People were not going when we had a team. There is not the volume of support here. It has been proven.
My son had to read the most recent Crupi report for a class he takes called Community Problem Solving, and I read it with him. Crupi basically states that part of the problem around here is the failure to act as a region – the duplication of services between Richmond, Henrico, and Hanover. He states that the answer is for the three entities to unite and act as one, streamlining services and increasing revenue for the inner city.
The problem is that neither of those counties wants to touch us with a ten foot pole. Why? Because of stuff like this… We look like the loony next door neighbor who wants to become business partners with you.
These counties have no motivation to get together and share anything at all with us. It’s obvious that they don’t need us, and our track record shows that we will probably bring them down with our provable history of ridiculous decision-making. Why on Earth would they want to join forces?
The roads and schools in these counties are better than ours. They have what they need already. Plus, stuff like this stadium makes us look so high-risk that they would get burned just thinking about getting involved with us.
Omelette, I’m not opposed to development (#62) but subsidizing big corporations and chains with our tax dollars seems more republican to me. Did we have to pay for Buffalo Wings or Pigeon Stool? I’m in small business like many of my friends and none of us are subsidized by the government and tax payer money.
No I do not have any kids, and if I did, they would be enjoying their morning classes at Fox or Munford right now. The schools in the east end are not up to par. Yes, it’s unfair those areas are favored when it comes to those programs. Yes, it would make sense for the city to put the programs in some east end schools in an effort to make schools better.
I am talking about the development this area needs period, not a baseball stadium. If it takes a baseball stadium to convince the city and developers to invest in this area, so be it. The west end didn’t need a baseball stadium to get good schools because they already had a variety of businesses and restaurants, and many people who want to live there. They also produce a lot more tax revenues for the city. Again unfair, but makes sense that they would be reaping the benefits of having the money they generate be invested in their side of town.
I am all for great schools in the east end. I just think that in a district that already has a few good schools, it is easy for the city and school board to sit back and forget about the east end. We need to be thinking of different approaches to build up our schools here. Why don’t you use this development as a negotiating point for more investments in schools? I would be totally for that. Get everyone together and offer your support in exchange for some part of what these schools are lacking.
Shannon- Henrico and surrounding counties have no incentive to work cooperatively with us, whether we are the loony next door neighbor or not. They can do it on their own. Why do they need our help when they can keep moving west on cheap land and have plenty of investors looking to build the next Short Pump?
What shops do we frequent in the counties and near westend because there are no alternatives in downtown area? ET, Target, Ukrops, Trader Joes, Whole Foods, daily wear clothing stores, etc. I wouldn’t be opposed to retail/shops offering things we are already buying in the counties thus supporting the burbs with our sale tax dollars.
Hey Omlette – I love baseball, actually. I also love good business plans. Having been other places, it seems like you have some great ideas to add. And re – 75, Shockoe, my impression of the proposition was the same as yours.
I really don’t mean to come across as negative and bitchy. I think there are tons of great things that can, and should be done to revitalize our town. I have just been trying to hold focus to a prime example of an aspect of Richmond leadership that could use a little change. Focus, and reasonable direction, are both required for positive change.
Any good business would have smiled, and endorsed private entrepreneurs to do what it takes to bring in more recreation, a courageous act on the heels of previous failure. But if they have the cash, let them do it!
Richmond does not smile politely and show moral support for these cavalier men and women. Richmond straight up integrates the building of a stadium – for a non-existant team – into its big picture. And this while our kids are scared to go to school because it’s so buck-wild there. Our priorities are crazy, and it is obvious to anyone who might be available to lend support.
This city has been doing stuff like this for a long time. It is not working, and it’s up to us to point that out if we give a darn.
So it’s really not the stadium. It’s about the larger picture, rife with horrible business practices.
Good then we agree! Our neighborhood needs something including those things. Does it need a baseball stadium, or is a baseball stadium a good idea? Who is to say, really, it significantly helps some cities and fails elsewhere. Bottom line, the idea of development in Shockoe sounds good to me.
Responsible development, of course.
Shockoe, you obviously know nothing about the elementary schools in the eastend. Bellevue elementary scored higher than Fox on the SOLs, came in 3rd place in the city for Mind Games, and currently is building a grass roots PTA. Will not take much to push our elementary schools beyond the tests. The problem area in the entire city is a shortage of good middle school and high school programs. Shockoe, are you somehow involved with making money off this development? Do you live in the eastend?
An I would add, as a REALTOR, that it is schools that draw… My experience, anyway.
Businesses, not so much.
Yes, you’re right because I don’t have kids so my life does not revolve around test scores and PTA meetings. All I read about is how much the schools out here are struggling, and yet (as I know from my realtor) housing prices per sq ft are about 10-20% higher in the Fan, Museum, and Munford district because of the great schools and how many family want to live there.
I stand to make no money off this development; I will just get to enjoy whatever comes out of all this. I live in Shockoe Bottom and I am tired of violence and crime happening outside of my house in all of these vacant parking lots. As much as I love the Bottom and Churchill, I am already looking to move to other parts of the city and perhaps to other cities completely. If I feel this way, I can only imagine what other people are thinking. This is a critical time for development and Richmond. If something doesn’t happen soon, perhaps more people like me will leave the area.
Facts:
How many Richmond Braves games have I been to in the past 5 years? 1 or 2 (say .2 per year)
If there were a baseball stadium down the hill from me in a great destination area where I could catch a game and then walk to a local pub for a beer before walking back up to my house, how many games a year would I go to? 5 or 6…maybe more
How many more people live less than one mile from the Shockoe Bottom area than do from the current Diamond? Many thousands
How many more potential employees at local businesses and corporations that finish their work day around 5 pm that would be within a mile of the Shockoe stadium as opposed to the Boulevard that could potentially stick around after work and walk to a restaurant and then walk to a game? Tens of thousands
What is the stadium capacity of The Diamond? 12,134
What is the stadium capacity planned for the Shockoe stadium? 6,500 with extra terrace/picnic seating plus space to add 2,000 more seats
What was the average paid attendace the last two years at The Diamond (the last being lower after the Braves announced they were leaving)? 2007-4,945 / 2008-3,267 (That’s 50% seats sold on average in a new stadium based on the past year’s low attendace)
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
If this is built AAA teams will be lining up to play there. That won’t be an issue. This would be the premiere stadium in all the minor leagues. As for who will show up? Richmond can easily draw 5000-6000 people a night for baseball. The Braves were not locally owned, invested very little in marketing and community involvement and the Diammond was a dump. That’s why baseball wasn’t supported in the past. I really don’t see any downside to this plan. All the issues that have brought up in the past (ie parking, flood plain, funding, slave trail ect.) have been addressed with this proposal. Is the sketchy Exxon, trashy parking lot, and Tiki Bobs better than what this development would bring?
Bill – I love ya, and you know it… But those are not facts. They are lots of maybes. Fact is that a stadium needs more than just guys like you, within walking distance, committing to taking in a game here and there.
And as far as the location of the Diamond reference, I draw your attention, again, to my observation that business at Kitchen 64 is booming. The location is not the issue.
Your post is proof of your lack of inherent interest, actually. If baseball is right down the road, easy as pie to access, your interest would be increased. In fact, you pretty much said that a 10 minute drive precluded you from hitting the Diamond.
Fact is that if absolutely everyone that lived down the road – within a 10 minute walking distance to this proposed location, my family included, went to games for the sheer proximity, it’s still not enough bodies to justify the price tag.
That’s the real math.
And Casey – I would love to see the evidence that teams would be lining up. Even more than that, I would be somewheat willing to support the concept if there were an actual specific contract in play. To the best of my knowledge, there is not one. Please correct me if I am wrong.
So this plan, at this point, is still like the idea of buying a gazillion dollar wedding dress in hopes that someone will ask you to marry them.
With what we know right now, it makes no sense. Particularly with fires burning all around us, in need of our financial attention.
Thanks Shannon…love ya too. What I gave are facts. The conclusions are your own to draw.
Re 87. I just laughed because I realized that you, Bill, might not be the Bill I was thinking you were. I was not trying to be snarky and sarcastic at all. I think I might have just been incorrect in who I thought I was addressing. Reminds me of calling my kindergarten teacher Mommy by accident. Embarrassing. 🙂
Not to say that I wouldn’t love ya if I knew ya!
Shannon….LOL….you’re right. I don’t know a Shannon in Church Hill. I kind of figured you thought I was someone else 🙂
No Chewie (and others) the bottom has some nightlife, but nothing one can really classify as “viable”. There are new restaurants and businesses struggling to make a go of things, but mostly, there are abandoned buildings and businesses with a lot of turn over that shorten their hours more and more just to keep their doors open. The Diamond (even after Kitchen 64 opened) was a destination. Nothing to do otherwise, in the middle of no where. In the bottom people could make a day of it, or even just grab some beers and a game after work.
Bill.. you hit the nail on the head. I think the most important piece of that is the people that work within walking distance of the stadium. People that would say ‘hey lets go over to the game’ before heading back out into the county sprawl for the evening.
The team is a non-issue, part of the ownership group already owns a minor league team and either buying a team to bring here or buying a team that wants to move here would be simple.
Heres a great article that hits on some of the pros/cons:
http://www.richmondbizsense.com/big-biz/458-developers-throw-richmond-a-meatball-or-is-it-a-knuckle-ball.html
p.s. The Diamond is a dump AND an eye-sore.
Why do we have to choose between schools or a stadium? That is ridiculous. The fact that the schools need improvement in no way reflects on whether or not a stadium in the Bottom is a good idea.
Tiny – the reason is that there are limited resources in the city’s budget. There is only so much money.
The schools in this section of town are in desperate need of financial investment in order to bring them to a standard that stands to bring young families to this area – to support this area’s local businesses economically. One person said that her child didn’t even have books. And parents with cash to spend locally will generally choose other areas to buy, rather than commit their children to educational lack.
The choice (schools vs. stadium) is mentioned, by me anyway, because of the city’s consistent poormouthing around investment in improving the schools around here. If they don’t have the money to invest in the schools, where are they getting it for the stadium idea? How can I go out to dinner every night and then turn around and tell my kid that I don’t have enough money to buy him a coat in the dead of winter?
I’d just like to see the schools getting what they need before our city commits to spending money for extras – huge amounts on recreation.
Ry – thanks for your points. I didn’t know that the investors already had a team. What team is it? Where do they play currently? I’d love to look them up!
Norfolk Tides games in downtown Norfolk are full of people from the bedroom communities surrounding Norfolk. Works there.
I still don’t understand the stance of being against the stadium because it may impact money spent on the school system. Now, if you are against the stadium for reason directly related to the stadium (it would increase congestion, for example), that I can understand, although I disagree.
The way the story reads in RTD, the developer is supposed to come up with a plan to fund the project without impacting the city’s money.
I don’t think we can wait to move on this project until the schools have been “improved”. If we do, we will lose this opportunity.
I would give my left arm for a retail store that I didn’t have to drive 12 miles for! I gambled on moving to the Hill because I hoped that development would continue to take place. This proposal might just be the change I and others have hoped for.
I’ve lived in Durham and frequented many a Bulls game, I’ve lived in DC in the Mass corridor, I’ve lived in the Miracle Mile area of Miami — all of these areas put significant investments in these development zones to MUCH success. This CAN happen in Richmond if we aren’t too afraid to pull the trigger.
I personally don’t care if it’s baseball or trained monkeys doing Cirque-esqe acrobatics…this area needs a serious capital investment. There are four vacant lots on either side of my house. How cool would it be if, encouraged by the new development, some cool folks bought and built on those lots? Oh, to hope…to dream!
BUILD, BABY, BUILD!!! 🙂
Richmond already has a Black History Museum:
http://www.blackhistorymuseum.org/
Will the museum proposed on this ballpark village site replace that museum? If not, does Richmond really need two of the same museums. What’s the attedance like at the current museum?
It looks to me to be a FANTASTIC development. I mean what the heck is there now? It’s a bunch of parking lots. It’s gonna be sweet to walk to the game from my house. I CAN”T WAIT!
Hillkid,
The Black History Museum in Jackson Ward is more oriented toward that culture. What seems to be proposed for the Bottom is a Slavery Museum taking in elements of the Slave Trail, Lumpkins Jail and the burial ground. I would hope that the Fredericksburg Slave Museum idea would die a long-anticipated death and that the funding (what little there is) would move down here. Since it would be directly behind the Reconciliation statue, it would fit into the area quite well.
This is a great idea for the city of Richmond, its the development we need to reverse the suburban trend and give the city an identity (agreed we have the fan, momument, but a lot of the cities developement/identity recently has become Short Pump, no good)
As The arguments put forward against seem to be wrongly focused
1. Schools – This is a private development, limited city funds will be spent and the incrementatal tax revenue would more than make up for any expenditures. These could in turn be used for schools/public transport etc.
2. Congestion – We can work on infrastructure, but the area is already widely accessible (it sits at the cross section of 64, 95 and Broad). You can approach from the south side on 95 or lots of bridges, the North on 95, the west on 195 or 95, the east on 64, not to mention there are lots of people who live withing walking/biking/short drives.
3. The diamond – The diamond is not a fun place to watch a game. Minor league baseball is supported because its fun to go watch, not because the team is good/bad. No one plans a parade when the minor league teams win the championship b/c that’s not what its about. Its about the feel, the fun times, the restaurants, etc. (Note: Kitchen 64 is booming, but its not accessible by foot traffic, which destroy and continuity with Braves stuff).
4. The Bottom – There are some good parts to the bottom, but it can be a lot better. Look at San Antonio, Memphis, etc. The bottom has not realized its potential. And the build area is actually the nastiest part anyway.
5. The history – I’m so glad this project include the historical perspectives of the slave trail and Lumpkins jail. This ought to be widely known and understood.
Some potential problems I see
1. Poor city managment – Um… we elect those people, so if they can’t manage the city, we’ve only ourselves to blame.
2. Its new – I think the next 5-6 months our leaders need to vett this proposal seriously. But we need to take the risks that come with this.
2. What’s going to happen to the community surrounding, specifically regarding displacement of the urban poor – This is a hard one.
Pros – More city tax revenue means better schools/infrastructure/city services.
– Retail development will provide sorely needed job opportunities in an area with high unemployment
– Development would pressure landlords and the city to clean up the hundreds of abandoned houses around the neighborhood.
– Development would draw attention to the area and the needs
Cons – The development will certainly increase land value and therefore rents and property taxes (outside of the context of the current housing crisis, that is).
– Influx of people will push out some of the urban poor. This might “clean up” Church Hill, but it wouldn’t solve any systemic issues, it would only push the problems elsewhere (I am one of these “influx people”, btw)
In summary, this is not the perfect answer, but it is a good one, and we should support this developmemnt while continuing to support the community of church hill (schools, businesses, families, etc.)
edit last post, the parenthesis should read “(agreed we have the fan, momument, but the cities developement/identity recently has become Short Pump, no good)”
Just wondering – what is to become of the giant indian?
#27 and #28: I personally would never go to the Diamond because it is probably in one of the most ugly, horribly undeveloped and crime ridden areas in Richmond, north of the river. You would have to ask the persons who were in charge of the Diamond why it was not used for other events. Sounds like poor management. The Richmond Raceway hosts a lot of events, as does “Belle Isle”. Some of those events may be interested in moving.
LP Field in Nashville is used for (among other things):
1)CMA Music Festival
2)Other concerts, musical festivals, and convention events
2)Fund Raisers (ie Nashville Strides Against Breast Cancer)
3)The Music City Bowl
4)Tennessee State University’s football team (Richmond could do the same for VCU if they decide to get a football team).
98% of the bars, restaurants, and clubs around LP Field are locally owned and/or unique to Nasville. Of note,”Planet Hollywood” failed, yet “Hard Rock Cafe” is still there. Go figure.
Most people who attend the games at LP Field park at satellite parking lots, and take a shuttle to the game.
Shannon…Relax…Relax…Richmond will have another baseball team. Do you really think a venue like the Diamond has the capacity to attract a new team to town? The Diamond is a horrible dump just like the area that surrounds it! If anything, that is the single largest reason why people in the counties will not attend the games in numbers. Hate to say it but the reality is people who live in the counties do not want to travel into the city, walk around a dumpy and unsafe area, be verbally or physically accosted by the local street urchins, and have nothing to do before or after a game. Games do not take place at Fenway Park every day…the stadium is empty more frequently than filled. However, the area surrounding it is always busy…it is an entertainment destination. All around the park, there are various things to do…shopping, bars, restaurants, clubs, theatres, and lots of homes. It works. Shockoe currently is not that successful because it is all of the things I described above. Unless the shabiness, blight, and vagrants are controlled…you will never see regional support from the counties. Hard-core city dwellers find charm in Shockoe….the majority surrounding us do not. They consider it a low-end dump. It scares people…plain and simple. Clean it up, build the right venue and fill it with things people love and they will come. You cite all of these projects that the city has tried but failed. To my knowledge, there has been nothing done to this magnitude. Using Sixth Street Marketplace as the cornerstone for your argument is flawed and weak. I suspect that the majority of naysayers have never lived anywhere other than Richmond… or worse yet, Richmond was a step up! I live in Church Hill and love it….but, there is a real lack of fun and nice places to go nearby. I can’t think of a better solution for the Bottom. When do we start?
Anybody else notice that the Diamond “Brave” is wearing a wedding ring? That sculpture is creepy in a cool/surreal sort of way. Kind of like a 50’s Si Fi flick. I too, wonder who will buy it, or what it’s future will be.
Re 104: Totally relaxed over here, and generally stay that way – even in the middle of discussions about the budgetary farce that is Richmond. But what are our options? Speak up and/or move. Right?
So nah, I’m relaxed. Don’t you worry bout a thing. Om.
Good points, here. I appreciate the enlightenment. For all affected, I hope this does great.
#57 Shannon- I was not kidding with my approval of this project or how much I would love to see that section of Broad St. paved. It has been said time and time again that we cannot secure a team without having built or having solid plans to build a new stadium. I realize you are a realtor, wouldn’t you think that this would boost the value of some homes you represent in the Church Hill area?
I am not saying that if we build an awesome new stadium in the middle of a *dying* area that people will flock to it by the thousands, however, the diamond was most certainly subpar and hardly anyone lived within walking distance. I would like to believe that Shockoe and Church Hill residents would venture on a walk to the new stadium.
ps- I don’t think it’s very fair to compare the Diamond to Kitchen 64, two very seperate things.
Mike #67- AMEN! BUILD IT!
Stephen #100- What poor urban people would be potentially displaced by this proposal? The bum that asks for money on the corner of 18th & Broad?? This plan doesn’t affect many people at all, displacement wise. As for the higher taxes pushing older, urban/poor people out of their homes, sounds like Robert Grey Jr. is your man, he wants to protect against things like this.
I think the main points to keep in mind here are:
1. School money and Stadium money are SEPERATE!
2. If we build a stadium we will easily find a team!
3. Shockoe Bottom is dying and needs something, anything, to revive it. Why not a stadium?
Kelly Justice, I’m sorry, but I disagree with your recommendation that the city attempt to turn Shockoe Bottom into some sort of sugar-coated, ginger-bread environment, replete with sports stadium, chain restaurants, etc.
Since you seem to think folks who oppose this Shockoe Stadium development are provincial hobbits, FYI, I lived in D.C. and NYC (Manhattan & Brooklyn) and attended major league sports in both metros.
But I’m appalled by the fascist-sounding mantra of “Unless the shabiness, blight, and vagrants are controlled…you will never see regional support from the counties. Hard-core city dwellers find charm in Shockoe….the majority surrounding us do not. They consider it a low-end dump. It scares people…plain and simple.”
So what do you propose to do with the “vagrants”? Bus them to Short Pump to relax in the Towne Center while the western Henrico-ites enjoy the Bottom in a sanitized world of people who look just like them?
Sorry, but I’d rather keep my shabbily-dressed guy pushing the grocery cart with his life’s belongings over a suburbanite who needs to feel “comforted” by a socially/governmentally engineered sanitization of the bottom.
I’m all for economic development, job creation, fighting crime and helping the mentally ill on our streets, but the Shockoe Bottom plan on the table simply isn’t what this city needs right now.
We city folk DO want folks who live in the counties to find downtown Richmond an inviting, exiting place to be and hope they will spend money in our restaurants, museums, retail shops, etc. This current Shockoe plan just isn’t the ticket.
i don’t get it. if they can prove that the VAST majority of the financing is private, why would you have a problem with this? i walk right through this corridor every morning on Broad St. and it has needed help for some time. No development will get done peicemeal here, you have large expanses of parking lots, etc. I haven’t heard any other ideas/proposals on what to use this space for. if I am not paying for it and it improves my neighborhood, I am all for it.
Good comment Union Hill. And to add to that, how would chain retailers and restaurants attract the county folk? Isn’t that what the counties are made of? Develop the bottom yes, but keep chains to a bare minimum. I don’t want to see a short pump town center in the bottom…keep in mind our national economy will have to change to one that is not reliant on consumerism. Our future: “make do, mend, self reliance, home vegetable gardens, home economics, conserve, reuse, local economies, barter, walk, bike, etc….”
In Richmond, why does any effort that qualifies as economic development have to be some guargantuan mega-scale multi-use-project?
Many of us took micro-econ101 in school, and those who didn’t know intuitively that small steps in economic/development often have the highest potential of long-term success. Even the Nobel Peace Prize committee in ’06 recognized that small is good with regard to micro-loans.
Here’s an example of a small, simple thing the City could do right now to improve quality of life and create an economic stimulus for the restaurants/bars in the Bottom:
At night, allow the restaurants on 17th Street to move tables/chairs out into the empty Farmers Market, and extend their businesses into the open square. This is what happens every night in European towns and cities (large and small).
Many of us have had the good fortune to travel abroad and see this “phenomenon” alien to US towns. Isn’t it fun? You sit outside and linger over a drink/dinner watching the world go by, see friends, play chess, hang out, etc. The streets are lively, people of all ages/status are outdoors enjoying the nightlife and the “see & be seen” scene.
With this simple approach, town squares/city parks become extensions of the restaurant/cafe income-producing square footage.
For us specifically, a nocturnally vacant (creepy) Farmers Market would be populated with restaurant/cafe patrons. Chilly weather, put heaters up in the rafters of the market’s existing framing.
Sure, you could close 17th street to vehicular traffic…or not.
Why doesn’t Richmond’s econ dev staff propose this idea? I don’t know. Maybe there isn’t a big developer who’ll benefit, maybe it’s not flashy enough to get someone a promotion in city hall.
But I do think it could transform the most visable area of the Bottom, adjacent to the train station, at night.
It would increase tax revenue by increasing the income producing capacity of the existing restaurants. And boost the overall liveliness of the area.
It may seem like a small idea, but I think it could create a long-lasting benefit to the businesses and patrons of the Bottom.
Great idea Elaine and I’ve seen and heard it mentioned a number of times on the blogs, papers, and on the streets. Maybe instead of a developer, we could commission an artist and architect to build a beautiful fountain. Open cafes make a city -it’s why we enjoy Europe so much. This would go great with a museum, gardens, farmers’ market.
I don’t see the development as one to attract more people from the counties. The people in the counties have already made up their mind about Richmond, probably years ago. I see it more as to attract new people to Richmond altogether. When people are moving to Richmond, they are often swayed to live in an area by what an area looks like, and the type of schools it has. If the Bottom is developed to have not only a baseball stadium, but hotels, residential, and office/retail space it is setting up the area to be more attractive. This development is creating a sense of community, where people in this area do not have to drive 12 miles away, but can drive or walk one mile to shop and be entertained.
Along with this development, I believe the schools are being recreated. Sense of community does not flow out of schools, rather the sense of community enters into the schools based on the community that surrounds it. And I believe it is already beginning, I have noticed big change in the school my wife teaches at. Whereas there was little involvement even two years ago, she has many people helping her in her classroom throughout her days. These are volunteers through churches and organizations and people in the neighborhood, and it makes a big difference not only in the classroom, but also in the community itself. I don’t discredit what Gray is saying, I think the schools in the east end need more programs and money for technology.
To confirm Elaine’s idea of outside cafe dining just go up to Charlottesville and visit the Downtown Mall if you want a European experience.
The only problem with Elaine’s idea is the smell. I don’t what is causing it, but on the backside of the Market (on the same street as the Franklin Market) it really stinks. And it has for years.
Yes the smells will make even more authentic like the cafes in Naples.
I fail to see how promoting outdoor cafes would have anything to do with the stadium. These are compatable concepts. I say send it up the flagpole to community development.
it’s funny how the last time this was presented, i hated the idea. but now it sounds decent enough. and i can’t stand baseball. wonder what changed? if it does end up happening, it would be great to use the stadium not just for baseball, which is boring, but also for soccer, music, easter egg hunts, mass exorcisms, mass marriages, all kinds of good things like that.
harrisburg, PA has a cool stadium built right in the middle of the river (on an island). we should be able to build on a flood plain, right? maybe throw in a school too. a nice little school, right between a Gap and a Hooters.
RE 107 – “I realize you are a realtor, wouldn’t you think that this would boost the value of some homes you represent in the Church Hill area?”
My experience is that home values are, in a nutshell, affected by supply and demand. Fourth grade math.
Lots of folks choose not to have kids, or choose private schools for their kids’ education. But an overwhelming amount of qualified homebuyers are families with children. Families that would love to live on the Hill, except for… The schools!
I understand from subsequent posts that the stadium plan is more viable than I had once understood it to be. So that’s good.
But I still think, from all standpoints, that taking any scrap of available funding and giving it to the schools in this area so that they can improve from within is going to pay off far better in the long run than any form of amusement that we install. And this includes, especially, as it pertains to all of our property values.
So that is the answer to your question. I’m just one person, and I speak just for myself – but I also speak as a person who does Real Estate all day, every day. Rare are the qualified clients who want to make the biggest investment of their lives in an area where their kids can’t go to a safe school. Doesn’t really matter what kind of frosting is put on the area to try to make it more attractive.
So even if you don’t have kids, and are not planning to ever have any, my experience is that your neighborhood schools are important part of the health of your property values, because safe, flourishing schools increase demand for the neighborhood at large. And increased demand raises prices.
Once again Shannon, well said!
I just went to an open house Sunday at Rocketts Landing. It was held to allow people to see all that is happening in this newer river front development. A friend (single woman) who is a new empty nester just bought a place there a few months ago and inivited me over. While there, I ran into another friend who I found out just bought a place there with his wife. They just became empty nesters and decided to move to the city to be closer to the action. My friend caught up with another friend while we were there and we toured their unit they closed on two weeks ago (2nd home for now and plan to spend more time there since they will soon be empty nesters).
I’ve had several younger married friends in Church Hill that have had children while living here and some decided to move out for better education (i.e. they moved to Church Hill when they had no children.)
True…we need better schools. One benefit is that those living in the city already will decide to stay in the city once they have children because the schools will allow them to give their kids a better education.
But those who are moving into the city now are mostly those without children (who may have them sometime down the road) and those who have children that don’t live at home anymore.
This is the market that real estate in the downtown, Church Hill, and the riverfront area is appealing to, whether it is home owners or home renters….and these people are moving here to be close to downtown activity and a city environment.
Ask yourself this question….when you and your neighbors moved into the city, did you or they have young children that moved into the city with them?
Improve the schools to give the best quality education for those that are here…they deserve it! And better schools may also draw some families into the city down the road.
But let’s face it, people that move into the city mostly do so to be closer to the action and want exciting and a variety of things to do within their community.
…and I’m a Realtor too…but even more so, I have lots of friends in their 30’s and 40’s with no children that are single and want to enjoy life, and lots of friends hitting the empty nesting stage (married and single parents) that just want to start living life and doing what they want to do now that their kids are grown).
Shannon, I agree that ever dollar the city has that can goes towards schools should. My wife is a teacher and we spend many evenings discussing the trials and tribulations of RPS. But I don’t believe this project would take any money from the schools. In fact, over the course of 5-10 years I think it would increase the money for schools. As many post-ers before me have said, you need a community that draws people into the area and keeps them there. If we work to make sure this project has the elements we think it needs to be successful, then this project, when successful, will create more revenue for the Shockoe businesses and in turn the city.
Sorry to comment off topic but realtors, tell your clients we have good elementary schools in the eastend. Check out #80. However, there is definite room for improvement and with more neighborhood and parent involvement, the schools will blossom.
You got it gray. Great info on the schools. I do work all around Richmond and the surrounding counties, although people always see the excitement on my face when they ask where I live and I say Church Hill!
#108… I’m sorry, I don’t recall saying what you consider MY recommendation. I think there are more YOUR words. “Kelly Justice, I’m sorry, but I disagree with your recommendation that the city attempt to turn Shockoe Bottom into some sort of sugar-coated, ginger-bread environment, replete with sports stadium, chain restaurants, etc.” Just because I support a diverse NEW development does not exactly translate into Short Pump (not that I think it’s a bad thing) complete with chain stores and restaurants. Let’s face it, Shockoe is chock full of non-chain restaurants and stores–the majority don’t do very well. They run a week away from closing down. The truth of the matter is that few small business owners lack the necessary capital to launch a new business, renovate a building into something impressive, acquire product and services that can keep them competitive in today’s market…those days are largely gone. I know it’s sad…but it’s the truth. New development is not always bad and…although I did not specifically say it…neither are some chains when they are committed to the community and support the local mission. Proper planning goes a long way to protect what the community cherishes and eradicate those elements that are undesirable. All of this can be accomplished. Short Pump Town Center would not be nearly as successful if folks who lived in Richmond City did not shop there. Shockoe will require the same regional support in order to be successful. Sugar-coating is not necessary…I’m sorry that you can only see as far as Short Pump as a model for economic development. As a matter of fact, none of the successful inner city projects that are hubs of entertainment; Baltimore’s Inner Harbor, Boston’s Faneuil Hall, Fenway, San Antonio, Memphis, Philadelphia..Market, Society Hill…look anything like Short Pump! They all have some things in common…lots of people, a variety of things to do, lots of shops and restaurants (chain and non-chain) and success. The same could also be true in the Bottom…it’s long overdue. My comments about the street folk that you took exception to was not meant to represent banishment. I was trying to make the point that this is a regional problem and should be dealt with as such.
The counties should take their fair share of responsibility…concentrating poverty does nobody any good. The city did not create 100% of these problems but is left to bear the major responsibility here. And gray…” Our future: “make do, mend, self reliance, home vegetable gardens, home economics, conserve, reuse, local economies, barter, walk, bike, etc…. You’ve got to be kidding…get with it Dorothy!
I, personally, do not tell my clients anything about the schools. If they ask, I tell them openly what choices my family has made, and why – mostly based on a same-sex environment, and the fact that we had cash earmarked for stuff like a few years of private school for him by a family member who passed. I certainly could not afford his tuition without that family help. We are fortunate in this way, through nothing but circumstance. Not everyone has this benefit. They gotta have great public.
I offer them websites to get the facts. I invite them to speak with their peers and get information that way, too. I am not the source for anything but my own honest experience. I try to leave any opinions out of it.
It is not a direct comment against or for the schools when I am saying that it’s definitely a topic that comes up when I am talking Church Hill with younger families. It’s the, “yeah, but what are we going to do about the schools?” conversation. This is when I pass along some places where they can get info.
Attracting families with young children, or plans of having them, is a great way to improve the schools, too. However, it has been mentioned in other threads all over this site that lack of parental involvement is one of the challenges that this area faces. My experience is that most parents don’t have the interest or fortitude to trailblaze when it comes to their children. The city has to step in and show extra support in this case in order to ensure an educational experience that is as positive as possible. Not asking too much, really. That’s your real, “If we build it, they will come.”
With all due respect, Bill, I must say that your demographic of those moving to the city is not reflective of my personal experience. I work with lots of folks who want to live a young, hip, urban young parent’s life. In the city.
Plus, by the time folks are empty nesters, I honestly figure they can pay for their own entertainment. At least until all the kids areound here have the books they need, (really not too much to ask – again.) Especially if these empty nesters have a couple bucks in their pockets – bucks that a good education probably helped them earn.
Bottom line is that, in some cases that I have seen, clients make the decision to take their 400 grand and buy in Bon Air, deciding to take the more rural route, so to speak. While the price of the house down the street keeps dropping because of days on the market. That family might have even bought that house, too. They would have loved to, but… The health/perception of the health, of the schools just directly affected every neighborhood homeowner’s investment.
Honestly, it’s happened several times with clients of mine. Eventually, after looking at several in Church Hill that they absolutely adored, they ended up taking their money somewhere else.
Eric said it best. The community feeds the schools and not the other way around. This is the problem with Armstrong. It is located in an area rife with gangs and so is the school. Once the area cleans up, so will the school.
And, honestly for every story you have of people buying in the county, I have a story of people moving up here. Church Hill is cool. The word is out and there are many, many people who are not afraid to move up here.
Not, of course, that this is in any way directly related to the topic at hand. Let’s get back on topic, which is the Stadium.
There was a comment above where a poster said that her agent had told her that the property values in the Fan are 10-20% higher than those on the Hill, and I would say that is pretty accurate. That area’s is perceived to have better schools. The schools feed the community in many ways, not the least of which is property values. This is a fact of the business. I’d love the see a day where I can brag that one of my listings is located in the Armstrong School District. As of now, no.
For me the topic is not the Stadium. It’s budget apportionment.
I agree that I’d rather the surrounding retail/commercial not turn into franchise alley, but there are a few things to remember.
The most popular drag in Charleston, SC (which we keep comparing Richmond’s potential too) is chock full of chain stores in historic buildings and it looks great.
Franchise owners are locals in many cases.
If we want to see more small businesses in the project or in Shockoe in general, why don’t we request that as part of this project the city’s economic development dept. set aside funding to assist small/micro-businesses looking to open.
RE #111 Elaine, while I also enjoy European outdoor cafes I just don’t think that is feasable in Shockoe Bottom. First and foremost, there would be the huge obstacle of the ABC and the provisions that would need to be made in order for people to take their bevys outside of the establishments, I wouldn’t assume that this would be an easy feat by any stretch of the imagination.
In addition to that, the summertime stench of the bottom would be enough to spoil anyones appetite, and when the clubs start bumpin downtown no one wants to be out sitting in the middle of that, I can assure you.
Again, why are we still discussing schools?! They are seperate monies.
Charlotttesville is really the model here.
There is almost nothing as nice as sitting at a table with friends on the Downtown Mall having excellent food and a glass of wine, people-watching and listening to music. They really have it going on.
However, this has already been covered in a similar thread.
http://riverdistrictnews.com/2008/06/14/why-does-the-farmers-market-suck/
Richmond in particular is incredibly committed to the Draconian ABC laws that inhibit this kind of growth and development. Charlottesville found a way to actually deal with the issue and got creative, which ended up benefitting everyone.
Transportation is a huge stumbling block in Richmond as well–for instance, Charlottesville has the free trolley that just makes a big loop and allows people to travel without having to park or to drink and drive.
Okay, this is off-topic, but I’ve been thinking about it for awhile and would like to express my opinion.
I live in Church Hill because I have an excellent quality of life, not because the property values. While that may be one way of determining whether or not someplace is a good place to live, it is neither the only factor nor even the most important factor for most people.
What do I love about Church Hill? I love the kids on their bikes, the pick-up games at the courts, the Irish Festival, the Sunday Redskin parties, walking to school and church, my neighbors, the Clean Alley Rally, United House of Prayer, the Church Hill Ball, Patrick Henry Inn, Hill Café, Captain Buzzy’s, Que Pasa, Poe’s Pub (my apologies to all the other establishments – I love them, all though), sitting on my porch chatting with passing neighbors, youth league football, the Eric Schindler gallery, “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!†and . .
Oh, I could go on and on. There are million reasons to love our area and enrollment in our local elementary schools increases every year. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have problems, or that improvements aren’t needed. But, our community does not solely exist of middle-income home buyers or young families. There are many renters and neighbors of all ages and backgrounds that decide to call Church Hill home each year. What I have always loved about this area in comparison to the Fan is that once people move here, they tend to stay and the Fan has a more transient student population.
Now, back to topic. I believe a stadium would be a cool destination for the city (and the counties) and would benefit our community. I would rather baseball be our centerpiece attraction and NOT a Target.
Tiny – I respect your opinions and contributions.
However, your statement that the health and viability of a person’s financial investment is not an important factor (when they are making choices as to where to spend a bunch of money) is completely inaccurate. (you said – most people do not purchase homes based on property values…) It’s just not true. Most people purchase homes based on just that – neighborhood property values. I see it constantly.
Smart investors don’t buy stock in candy because they like the taste of the product, as a general rule. If they do, they are considered pretty eccentric. Smart investors buy based on how well the product is holding its value – and what educated trends show to be potential for increase.
Qualified homebuyers are saavy investors, making a huge commitment. Pick-up games and coolness are great and all, but they simply do not sell houses. As much as we might like to think that coolness factor holds that kind of power, it doesn’t.
The question is, what is this community doing to make Church Hill a viable option all around, and remove the stigma that “it’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.”? And how are we insisting that the city support that, foundationally?
This is why budgetary apportionment is a huge issue for homeowners in Church Hill.
I love Elaine’s idea of starting with aesthetics, smaller investments that can increase appeal – saving more money in the limited budget to get the kids’ educational level up to a higher standard – at least perception-wise.
Not to mention that waiting 5-10 years for the benefits of a grand investment to trickle down is pretty harsh for the kids that are there, in our classrooms, right now.
I’d rather have the National Museum of Slavery as our center piece, not a Target or a baseball stadium. The museum should be a large structure on Broad St just like the other state and federal institutions like the Dept of Transportation, MCV/VCU, Federal Court, old and new City Hall, the State Library, to the West Broad Science and Children’s Museums.
Shannon –
you seemed pretty opposed to the idea of the stadium on the basis of lost financial support for education. if the developers can show where their money is coming from and it does not involve a large investment from the City, would you still oppose it? if it wasn’t a schools vs stadium thing in terms of City budget apportionment?
I understand your perspective, especially as a realtor. But, I think your perspective is a bit narrow. I can tell you, I could not afford a $400,000 house, so I guess I am not an “ideal” neighbor. Church Hill is full of people like me and we are dedicated to the community and economically contribute the neighborhood in many ways.
But baseball games are fun! We would always go to the Diamond at least a couple times a season. It’s fun for single people or families. The museum, I would go to once, maybe revisiting only in few years.
RE 137 – Jeg, I would prefer no investment from the city, actually. But that’s just me. I’m more laissez-faire. The less investment from the city, the better.
I’d be interested to know what, in numbers, a small investment from the city would mean. Is that small investment more or less than the pricetag of books and salaries for more great teachers?
Someone said earlier in this thread that small business do not generally receive a great deal of financial support from the government for start-up. True. We have deductions, but the government is not giving me a gas card, on their dime, to make sure I can get where I need to be to do my job. If there are investors, why do they need the city? I have to do what it takes to maintain, or go out of business. Can’t the developers for this Stadium sink or swim in their own right? If not, why not? Red flag.
I’d rather see that happening, frankly. Just like it does with us little guys.
There is no Constitutional commitment to large scale enterprise. The forefathers hoped folks would always rock it out, sure, but they were actually against private enterprise on the government’s dime.
I’d like to see basic needs being the focus, first. I’m all about fun, but I don’t know that the Stadium justifies itself as a neighborhood boon the way that improving education around here would surely do.
And Tiny – my house ain’t worth no 400 grand, either. Not even. And it doesn’t mean that you or I are lesser people. Didn’t mean to come off as elitest. Just a figure I pulled out from a recent experience with a couple I was working with.
The stadium connection with schools is if the city has to pay for the “Shockoe Center” development, that money is not available for services such as education.
The entire Shockoe proposal depends on the city’s financial backing. The taxpayers must promise to bail out the developers. This is corporate welfare.
But how can such a warm fuzzy project possibly fail?
The residential part may fail because the neighborhood already has so many condos and apartments. And new ones are coming online every day. Not to mention the number of existing units that are standing vacant. And don’t forget we’re in a recession.
The office park is risky, too. Look at the commercial vacancies downtown. Businesses won’t come to the financial district, yet we are supposed to believe they will come to Shockoe Bottom?
Finally, Richmond is not a baseball town. People never really supported the Braves. Except on fireworks night and when the final game was played. Even when the team made the playoffs very few people showed up. Baseball stadiums almost never produce a return on investment anyway – except to the team owners.
If the Shockoe stadium idea is so great why don’t they finance it with private funding? And if private money won’t go near it, why should the taxpayers?
Okay – who has the scoop? I know I read that this was to be financed with private money, but everyone keeps coming back to the city’s investment. What is the truth and whoever has it,can you provide a link to its source?
I think the proposal is awesome! The area proposed for redevelopment is a scary cement/asphalt/chain link fence wasteland that does no one any good. A stadium by itself would be a waste. But a comprehensive mixed use development will bring handsome architecture and new residents to a part of town that is in desperate need of assistance. Even if the development is financed through TIF, the creation of a more attractive, vibrant downtown will attract more than enough new residents and visitors to the City, who will support local businesses, pay property taxes and food and beverage taxes, to make up for any taxes currently being paid on vacant land owned by the City and an anemic Shockoe Bottom entertainment district. I look forward to the day when I can walk (or ride my bicycle on designated, safe bike ways or bike paths) from my home in Church Hill though a thriving Shockoe Bottom to my office in Jackson Ward. Maybe one day the east end of town will have more restaurants, delis, shops and theaters than parking lots and vacant properties. I wish the developers all the luck in the world. Anyone willing to invest hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in my community is a friend of mine!
Yes, private developers show us the money before you dig a hole on Broad…. Deja vu!
Have none of you actually read the Powerpoint presentation? The private funders are the ones who put this together. It’s not like Wilder just drew up some crazy scheme in the wee hours of the morning as a way to waste all of your tax dollars. Take a look:
http://www.richmondsmayor.com/media/45286/otherpdf.pdf
As for those who think big money will run the show, look, if I was a small business owner, I’d sure as hell rather move into a nice new restaurant space than spend a fortune renovating one of the abandoned buildings in Shockoe in order to get it up to code. You can only do something of this magnitude with city assistance, but it clearly doesn’t hurt the little guys.
Lower downtown in Denver is basically a 30-block version of what Shockoe could be under this plan. A few chains mixed in with nice local bars and a public tram that goes right to the Rockies stadium. It’s great.
Haven’t you guys been to other cities? Surely you know you’ve seen what works and what doesn’t.
From all the alternative ideas I’ve seen put forth in this thread, it sounds like the opponents would like Richmond to be some kind of pseudo-European Detroit, with outdoor dining and fountains scattered amongst the vagrants and smell of Shockoe.
Well put Lamplighter (post#141).
A quick analogy…
You are a homeowner with a certain net annual income. You would like to make improvements to your home, but hey, it’s difficult in tight economic times. The roof is leaking, a window has a severe crack, and the hot water heater produces luke warm water at best. Do you repair the roof, window, or the hot water heater first? Or just install an in-ground pool in the back yard because it will enhance the property eventually? It’s called priorities.
If the Shockoe Bottom and Boulevard developments are 100% privately financed, well then, full speed ahead. Let private investors reap the benefits or suffer the losses of these developments. Do not gamble with taxpayer money when there are city services to be maintained and improved.
One other quick point regarding the outside dining idea, per the Downtown Mall. I am actually from Charlottesville. I moved here in 1987 to go to college.
The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control is a Commonwealth entity. It is the same in Charlottesville as it is here. It just so happens that the Richmond chapter has always been on some crazy power trip, and gone to great lengths to show its muscle.
I was actually working at the Moondance when we were smacked for an absolutely ridiculous violation – displaying a sign to promote an awesome band called the Ex-Husbands, that said “We serve beer colder than your ex-wife’s heart.” It was a great joke – and it was taken straight from the jacket of the CD. But you are not allowed to say beer. For real. So metropolitan, aren’t we?
Our local ABC should be forced to listen to the people, just like they have in CVille. They work for us, we don’t work for them. Citizens of CVille have no illusions about that relationship, and they behave like the bosses that they should. They don’t allow for the bullying and distracting that we pretend to have to contend with here.
If we really wanted change in that regard, affecting the flavor of our Downtown, we could force it like they did for the Mall. We just have do what it takes to say what we want, in no uncertain terms, and start behaving more like we are in charge. We are supposed to be in charge.
Charlottesville is a great town, and it’s a town has a sense of hope that matters. They know that they have rights and responsibilities to be directly involved in any decision-making process that affects them, on their dime. For them it is a matter of course.
Also,I think more people supported the Braves than is portrayed by Lamplighter. Have you ever been to a game? I never got to see the All-Star or the July 4th games, which are big money makers, but I did go to at least two or three games each summer. And, no the stadium was filled, but it was far from empty! Despite the fact it was ugly, falling apart, in a very unappealing location, and suffered severe drainage problems. Not bad, considering. And, some of things would be overcome in the current plan.
And,I am not even a sports fan. But, like I said, it was really fun. And, many local business bought boxes for the season (I know my employer did) and many people had season tickets. Who the heck buys season tickets for a museum? Or buys a box for a whole summer’s worth of employee appreciation days.
I, of course, meant “was not filled”.
The financing question is partially answered in the powerpoint but to be somewhat more direct (and for those of you who won’t read it). My understanding is the developers are asking the city for two things when it comes to the Shockoe dvmt.
1) Money for infrastructure (that would be sewer, roads, etc.)…This money would likely come out of a pot of money designated for…. infrastructure, thus couldn’t be spent in the schools.
2) The financial backing of the city some post-ers are refering to is the ability to issue tax exempt bonds to finance (a portion of) the project. By the bonds being backed by the city it would allow a lower interest rate. The only money out of pocket for the city would be if the development could not make the payments. Each state is issued a certain amount of bond capacity they can use each year and the state then says we will use X% on housing, Y% on schools, Z% on economic development. This project would come from the economic/industrial development pot ..no money out of the schools’ pockets.
Two other items mentioned in the posts/powerpoint/news articles around money. 1) They are asking GRTC/VDOT/Federal Govt for money to upgrade the Main Street station. This money would come from funds designated for transportation. 2) Some type of TIF district. A TIF (tax increment finance) district is, basically, when the city takes an area, designates it as a TIF district and makes a note of the taxes generated in that area. The city then commits to use any tax revenue generated in excess of that level for loan payments on the project for a certain amount of years, usually 10 or 15. The idea is for the area to become an economic engine, which creates more tax revenue, that revenue finances the project, and at the end of the 10 or 15 years the city receives a boost in funding (and a nice project).
RE 150 – “1) Money for infrastructure (that would be sewer, roads, etc.)…This money would likely come out of a pot of money designated for…. infrastructure, thus couldn’t be spent in the schools.”
Reapportion, and the money could be spent anywhere it was found to be most needed. Where is that infrastructure money being spent now? Is there a big glut or something? Also, ever seen a bunch of sewers dug and roads laid? I have. Omigosh it is not cheap.
“The only money out of pocket for the city would be if the development could not make the payments.”
Does the city back me if I can’t make my mortgage payments? On the contrary. They get in line to get their share – in fact are first in line in a foreclosure situation, ahead of any other noteholders. The city is going to get theirs from the little guy, but, in effect, insure/underwrite this venture?
If so, then whose job is it at the city to review this company’s business plan for viability? (That’s a real question, because I don’t know.) Whoever it is, is it a person who has run successful businesses, and are they able to recognize, and call the developers on, any shortcomings? What is the reviewers’ authority to amend the plan for increased viability, if needed – or pull backing?
Also, I hope it is understood that reps from the city, paid by us, are going to need to stay heavily involved to audit the progress of the construction – for however long that takes. Or at least I would hope so, if the city is insuring the endeavor. (When 203K residential construction loans were still widely available, banks would be extremely present in the home renovation, requiring reams of paperwork constantly, and certain steps to be done their way.)
Someone(s) from the city are going to need to stay around and handy to enforce timelines, which are often missed completely in consruction – drawing projects out endlessly, everyone shrugging their shoulders. From an underwriting standpoint, I would like to see examination of the investors’ experience with grand-scale construction, as well. Do they even know what they are doing? Have they done it before, and if so, was the result good?
Again – this is a big risk for the city (US), and more investment than it may initially appear to be. How many books could one extra salary be for a position of overseer or liason buy?
I’d also still like to know more about this team is that is already coming here.
Lastly, how is it helping our area if any additional tax funds gleaned from the operation of this are given back to the private investors for 10 or 15 years to pay their bills? Wait a sec! I thought that one of the great things about this was the amount of extra cash this would bring through taxes – you know, to be invested in this community… If I am understanding correctly, any profit from this project is not given to the community, (major pep-rally type motivator,) but given back to the high rollers taking on this project.
So the trickle-down revenue argument for taking these risks isn’t even there anymore. At least not for this generation.
I like Resident’s analogy. It totally IS like putting a pool in behind a house that has problems with the roof. And saying that the revenue from the pool will pay for a new roof sometime, a decade or two down the road. What shape will the rest of the house be in by that time?
The pool analogy would apply if the city was paying for all of the construction, which isn’t the case. It’s more like being approached by a company who wants to open a pumpkin farm in your backyard, if you agree to help build the irrigation system to get the farm started. They cover the cost of fertilizer and seeds, and in return, down the road, they give you a percentage of the proceeds to pay for the repairs to your house.
On the other hand, if no one wants the pumpkins, you’ve got an expensive rotting eyesore in your backyard and you’re suddenly in debt.
Shannon wrote:
“…whose job is it at the city to review this company’s business plan for viability? (That’s a real question, because I don’t know.)”
That’s the 64-dollar question. The main reason the project got killed before was the developers refused to agree to a feasibility study.
And with good reason. A feasibility consultant would ask disturbing questions like who would move into the hundreds of condos and apartments the developers propose to build in an already saturated area. And why would businesses come to Shockoe Bottom when they won’t go to the financial district downtown. Also, why would Richmonders support a minor league baseball team in the Bottom when they never did on the Boulevard?
In short, a feasibility study might kill the project. That’s why they refused to do one before. And that’s why they never will do one.
I’ve closed the poll that was running beside this, here are the results:
#151
-If you want to reapportion money that’s a completely different issue.
– The banks, bond underwriters, city, and whomever else is involved in the transaction will all review the project for viability and be there every step of the way with inspections before construction draws, etc.
– On a sidenote: the 203k program is a gov’t program and all that paperwork is gov’t required.
– For the TIF district the areas around the district typically generate increased revenue from the additional traffic, ppl living in the area, etc. If you want to know more about the pros/cons of those there are plenty of studies out there. But in reality, you get a new project with no current money out of the city, its all project based revenue.
-Review of viability? First its the ten or eleven investors in the project. Then the consultants they hire (I’d say they refused a feasibility study because they didn’t want to pay for it when there was so much negative push against it at that point). Then the city, the city’s bankers, the appraisers, the market study guys. AND US, which is why i keep saying if we think there are elements to this project that would make it better its up to us to voice them.
The RTD weighs in on the debate:
http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/opinion.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-11-01-0019.html
Ry – Reapportionment is not a separate issue. It IS the issue. Priorities.
And not to get into a contest, but the actual money for every 203k that I have seen, and there have been a few, comes from banks – loans BACKED by HUD, but not directly from HUD. So you are correct in a sense. But not completely, because it is not HUD money, so much as HUD guarantee.
HUD was acting as a check and balance with the banks, saying, “if we are going to underwrite these loans, you are going to have to make people justify their worthiness several times over the course of disbursement – disbursement which, for reasons of fiscal conservatism, will be incremental.†HUD was there to check the banks and make sure the banks check the borrower. My question was related to where the checks and balances fall in this particular situation. From what I can see, the very fact that the investors refuse to be examined makes them totally unqualified to receive one red cent.
What do you think a bank would say if you were like, “Hey – gimme some money, okay?” And they were like, “Okay cool. Show me that you are worthy of the investment – send me your tax statements, let me look at your credit score and history, etc.” And you were like, “Nah. You don’t need to know that. Just do what I say, okay? I’m nice! And I am going to use the cash for something real pretty! I’ll even let you come over and play with it sometimes!”
They’d laugh their heads off (as they should!) thinking that it must be some kind of joke. And they’d laugh even harder if they saw the same face, coming back to try again in a couple-few years, same dialogue, no change in the approach or willingness for examination. It’s kinda hilarious, actually, if it weren’t so serious in this case.
As much as one might try to rationalize reasons that would justify investors refusing to participate in a viability study, whatever that entails, this means that they want more than they are willing to give right off the bat. Red flag.
So if HUD checked the banks in the measly 203k loans, who is checking the city if they are acting as the bank AND HUD, so to speak – giving cash (and/or services – including tax incentives) and underwriting, as well, on a massive scale. Who is going to make sure that everyone’s not, metaphorically, sleeping with each other? It happens. More often than not, it happens.
Please stop thinking, people, that baseball is fun. That Church Hill is neato. That other towns have cool stuff, so why can’t we… And yeah, Omlette, I’ve been around this country a bunch, spent a fair amount of time in every state, tons of cities, seen lots of stuff. I even own more than one property outside of Virginia.
Traveling is my crack. I go without luxuries all the time to save space in my budget for experiencing other places. (Ding! Priorities!) And the fact I have witnessed that other places have the economy and the interest to support these types of venues is simply not evidence that the same exists here. In fact, if you are new here, this is a great opportunity to learn something about Richmond, instead of trying to randomly overlay “truths†simply because they may apply elsewhere.
This whole situation needs to be looked at like a business, veeerrryyyyy conservatively. Much of this plan has quick fix, cheap rush mentality, written all over it. It’s indicative of a sick attitude, and it should – at this point – be seen that way.
Attention to this city’s foundation, and currently-unmet obligations, absolutely must come first.
This is a little off subject, but relevant to the discussion. Earlier this year I went to an all day seminar on tourism. It was lead by a well known and respected tourism industry consultant.
She did not give Richmond, or it’s cultural institutions very high marks. She noted that the over-sized convention center was putting the cart before the horse. Similar projects in other city have failed miserably.
She stated that the surrounding area from the convention center looked like a war zone and that folks researching cities for their conventions are really turned off by this. Conventioners do not want to walk out into a scary looking area that has nothing to offer. No restaurants, no clubs, no hotels (except the Marriot) no shopping within walking distance – there is nothing in Richmond near the center. And, predictably the center is not bringing in the revenues and people that it thought it would.
She went on the evaluate the other local attractions and cultural venues saying that most of them our very outdated in their marketing approach. Must, dusty, boring…
She also talked about how disconnected Richmond’s attractions are from one another. It’s very difficult for a visitor to navigate the various sites and the distances between them. There is no real collaborative “plan†to attract tourism.
It was kind of amusing to see all these curators/directors sweating in their tweeds.
Developing a stadium village is definitely better than a stand alone stadium. Probably something that the convention center project should have done.
One of the big things that the consultant talked about is a self-contained experience, similar to a cruise ship. Everything under one roof, so to speak. Ease of use and convenience. That’s what the modern tourist seeks these days.
I really disagree with you Shannon, but you have a right to your own opinion. I do believe the stadium will be supported and that people move to Church Hill for more reasons than to have a great investment in their home, We all speak from our own perspectives.
I’m a little late joining in here. I was against the first proposal and its revision was a little better but there was still a lot of shady dealing going on. I also didn’t care if we lost the Braves who wanted a Shockoe stadium by any means. I’m glad they’re gone. Because we don’t have a team does not mean we will never have one again. I am willing to give this proposal a chance even though I am not a sports fan and it’s been over 12 years since I’ve been to a baseball game. Just because I don’t like it or won’t go doesn’t mean there aren’t people who will. We need something for everone in this city and the package looks attractive. It’s only the first plan. It’ll be revised and it’ll get better.
Gaston’s flooding was for us a once-in-a-lifetime event. We’ve had many tropical systems that did not do that type of damage before and since. The minor drainage issues that caused backups during normal storms have been fixed. Besides, if the valley floods from upstream again, this proposed super block may help channel the water along Ambler or down 18th. The rest of the water would under the old rairoad bridge under Broad. People have been for the Slavery Museum near 15th and Franklin but that also flooded in Gaston. So I guess it’s safe to do nothing.
From what I gather from the general attitude of the replies is that Richmond is better off doing nothing. We’re famous for doing nothing. Why stop doing nothing? Even if we built all new schools with all new technologies and everything surpassing the suburbs, the suburbanites still won’t flock to the city to live. They can demolish and rebuild JFK/Armstrong and place the same staff and students there and all you’ll get is the same old problems in a shiney, new place. Nothing there will change until the parents are forced to care and we find the best teachers. It also wouldn’t hurt to disperse the poverty and get the counties to share in the responsibility. So scream better schools all you want, you can get better school buildings, but throwing money at our schools won’t solve the problems students and parents themselves cause.
I agree we should bring the National Slave Museum here since they’re way behind in Fredericksburg. I’d rather have that built on Echo Harbour’s site though. I am all for brining more people into the city and luring the suburbanites to leave their stale sections of the county to spend some time and money in this living city. God knows people in the city are basically forced to go to their areas for lack of everything. Let us build and bring better businesses back into the city. The suburbs have robbed from us because of our do-nothing attitudes long enough. Let’s show them we can play as well.
I would like a show of hands of the parents here who are psyched about the current condition of Armstrong. I don’t think that any of us are thrilled about what is happening there. I spent a fair amount of time on the phone a couple days ago with Art Burton, and he is far from ecstatic. He has made that plain, and I doubt he would mind me sharing.
I also was in MLK this past week, picking up an application for Appomattox. It was during classes. The school was clean, and the students and staff were totally hospitable toward me. The vibe was really nice – I have nothing negative to say about the people.
But I did notice a display case outside the cafeteria, with about 45 or 50 slots for honoring students with artwork or trophies. There were three or four lonely sculptures of animals on the shelves. They were totally cute (!) but it did not look like a vibrant use of the space, to me. Prime real estate to be showing off the great health of the community there.
Let me qualify to say that the school may very well have been in the middle of changing the display – I’m not sure. But if anything was missing overall, (to me,) it was the schwag that you see at Fox, Hill, Munford – the artistic attitude that can go far in showing the pride of a school – an environment that has a healthy love for itself. Personalization.
This is not meant as a negative statement. It’s just one person’s neutral observation. The décor was not lively, or aesthetically appealing the way that you tend to see in communities that are perceived as more thriving.
Bringing in more art programs, funding the schools so that teachers don’t have to come up off their own meager income to supply their students, and basically bringing our schools to a level that competes with other areas in our city, would go far for this area.
But as my dad used to say, you can’t worry about your head when you’re ass is on fire. Constantly dealing with emergencies, like we understand to be the case at Armstrong, for example, is not conducive to vibrancy. If we are offering our kids an education that will qualify them to be thieves for a living, (and assuming we are fine with that,) we are not developing a generation of season-ticket holders. In which case, the demographic for this Stadium depends on folks willing to travel.
I’m not saying that they are not there; I’d just like to see someone show us, from a qualification standpoint, that they are. Until some kind of evidence can show us the viability of this, I’d prefer to see the stadium idea put on the back burner, and this community backing investment in their own peeps.
I was at White Oak this morning, and it actually looks pretty nice. I’m not against development and improvement, by any stretch. But let’s take it easy with the Stadium. Hold off and see how the rest of it goes. What’s the rush, anyway? This should not be an impulse buy.
Well the rush is from a lot of people angry we lost the Braves.
The city is in need of development that will bring it back to life. Stuff like this is easy compared to changing minds of those who don’t care about education. We do have an image to patch and you know, we can fix both aesthetics and education at the same time, it’s just one will take a lot longer and probably more than a lifetime to accomplish.
I’m going to mention something relating to my previous post. Not that flood waters going down Ambler and 18th is a good thing. Perhaps the field can act as a retention pond sparing other businesses the same kind of damage seen in 2004.
Before we even consider a baseball stadium, money should be spent to make all schools ADA compliant (it is the law), build new schools where needed, fund vocational, academically advanced, and art programs, and hire qualified teachers. But I do agree with Cadeho that just throwing money at the schools won’t help, not as long as we have the same corrupt or inept administrators downtown and in various schools. More money tossed at Armstrong will not solve the gang issue but having the principal atleast acknowlegde there is gang activity, which he hasn’t, is a step in the right direction. I found out why the second graders didn’t have their language arts books…someone within administration failed to order them in time -nothing to do with lack of funds.
Just one thing: the point is not about a baseball stadium. It’s about redeveloping Shockoe Bottom. The stadium may or may not be a part of that redevelopment.
Do you see any benefit of redeveloping Shockoe Bottom?
Thought everyone would find the information on the development emailed out by Venture Richmond interesting:
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Proposed plan to transform a portion of Shockoe Bottom into Shockoe Center, a $363 million transit-oriented, mixed-use town center.
Plans call for:
* 200,000 s/f of Class A corporate headquarters-caliber office space
* 80,000 s/f of entertainment-oriented retail and restaurants
* 250 apartments (some overlooking ballpark)
* 300 hotel rooms (two hotels, one overlooking ballpark)
* 60 condominiums (some may overlook ballpark)
* 2 parking decks, plus surface parking, and
* Slave Trail and Heritage Center
* 1 ballpark; 8,500-capacity
The Ballpark:
* 6,500 traditional seats; 1,500 to 2,000 additional guests in restaurant/club, terraces, family zone, enclosed suites and picnic areas.
* Unique ballpark woven into the streetscapes of Shockoe Bottom.
* Adjoining historic buildings retained, restored and incorporated with rooftop “party decks” for groups.
* Extension of 17th Street Farmers’ Market as main promenade into ballpark including open air pavilion, Shockoe Square entertainment area, and an “entertainment alley” between the ballpark and existing nearby businesses.
* Designed for expansion to 8,500 seats
The Master Developer:
Highwoods Properties (NYSE: HIW) is a real estate investment trust that provides leasing, management, development and construction services. On September 30, 2008 the company owned or had an investment in 383 in-service office, industrial and retail properties encompassing approximately 35 million square feet and owned 619 acres of development land. Since January 2005, the company has delivered $505 million of new development.
Highwoods is the largest suburban office developer in the southeast, and the largest in the Richmond area. The Company has developed 29 buildings in the western Henrico/Innsbrook area and five in the Stony Point area. Highwoods also developed One Shockoe Plaza (headquarters for The Martin Agency) in the Shockoe Slip historic area.
The Team:
The development team includes Highwoods Properties; CMSS Architects; Timmons Group; SMBW Architects; Hirschler Fleischer; LeClair Ryan; Williams Mullen; Boisseau Partners; Richmond Baseball Club, LC; HKS; Morgan Keegan; and Historic Housing, LLC.
“
RE: 136 – Let me just say that I am all for a slavery museum, granted we can get the money back from Fredericksburg. However, when is the last time ya’ll went to a museum in the city? I am not counting 3rd Thursdays or a wedding/event… The Poe museum doesn’t seem to be booming, nor does the museum of the Confederacy or the Valentine…. would it be worth it to make the museum the highlight of our downtown attraction? I think not.
I lived in a country in Eastern Europe for several years. They did not have their ball park – Football-Soccer Field in the middle of town. It was on the outskirts… Look at Google Earth… Sofia, Bulgaria. This idea about putting the ballfield in Shockoe Bottom in Richmond is ludicrous. Take a hint from the people that have been in society longer than Richmonder folks. It’s a cluster to put a ball field in the Bottom. I think all the city managers have all book sense and no common sense. TRAGIC. I was born here & grew up here. Parker Field is fine where it is. Leave it be. Put a high rail train station – bus – tour station and link the train with the one in D.C. & N.C. etc. Right now…the Amtrak is somewhere obscure. God Help Us All