Further updates on the Shockoe Center proposal

wild beast fights! mock sea battles!

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/colosseum/a/Colosseum.htm

So $60 million in bonds will be paid with revenues generated by 250 apartments, 60 condos, a hotel, retail, and office space that will come “online” after the economy is no longer in recession(whenever that may be)?

Again, how can the developers be reasonably certain that there will a market for any of this when their project comes “online.” After all, we’ve got a glut in all the above real estate inventory and it’s only going to get worse in a deteriorating economy.

Would the developers be so certain of their financial projections if they were investing their own money as opposed to “other peoples money”?

Omelette, that still doesn’t answer my question, if the surrounding development doesn’t make money, who will pay for the ballpark?

This is just another downtown corporate welfare scheme. When will we see this much money and attention going to neigborhoods and schools? Do we need another Battery Park disaster before people start recognizing the misplaced priorities?

The Julep’s Restaurant is located in one of Richmond’s oldest commercial buildings.

Eric- The existing buildings in the bottom will not be affected, except for the gas station. I am not sure but Tiki Bob’s might also be at risk. Other than that, I know for a fact the rest of the buildings on 18th st and the 17th st market are incorporated into the plans, and will not be harmed by any of this.

Scott, you’re bringing up the false dichotomy I see a lot on here – that somehow money going toward development is money being diverted from public schools.

If you have an issue with school funding, you should take it up with the Virginia General Assembly and make sure Democrats take back the House of Delegates in 2009. When it comes to state funding of public schools, I think Virginia’s near rock-bottom.

The Julep’s building is not in the proposal’s footprint. Only one building is in the footprint.

From looking at the Highwoods power point presentation (from the earlier blog about the project), on page 37, it shows that the buildings on 18th St. will be removed from the NW corner of 18th and Franklin up to Broad St. Julep’s won’t be touched, nor will the side of 18th where Zuppa is.

Thanks for this information. Opponents of this project need to see the bigger picture and what a development like this may mean for the Richmond region as a whole. We have got to continue to attract outsiders and increase our tax base. Quality of life projects like this one are important to the vitality of a city. This is an investment in Richmond.

http://lifeinthe804.blogspot.com/2008/12/baseball-in-shockoe-bottom-aka-can.html

shockoe bottom development occured because small businessmen took risks. i was an early 80s pioneer in shockoe bottom and i dont remember one big business money machine coming down there to help spark development. now that the heavy lifting has been done the big money boys are gonna come down and show us local yokels how to screw it up. no thanks. go stand on somebody elses head to make yourselves look taller. shockoe and churchhill dont need a scapegat so suburban types can come into the city twice ayear and see some urban folk. thats why they are building that bullshit performing arts boondoggle instead of fixing infrastructure.how about building some stuff that people might actually use?buddycorbett

Sugar Bottom… baseball is an American Institution and the backbone of American sports. Calling baseball “20th century” sounds like someone who wasn’t even born when the original Diamond was built!

I do recall when the original plans were drawn up and trying to squeeze the stadium between buildings and between blocks (Main, Broad, 18th) so that would have impacted I believe all of the West side of 18th Street hence building the businesses within the stadium walls so it looked like they were not torn down? I haven’t seen the new plan, may have changed the footprint but if so, the stadium will be fairly small when also thinking about parking.

Eric

buddy
i hear everything you are saying about small businesses and what they have done for the Shockoe Bottom area. we wouldn’t be here having this debate were it not for small businesses taking the risk in locating there years ago. the point here is that it is going to take someone with a lot of financing (ie a big company) to rework this area and get around the issues these parcels of land have. think about it, why haven’t these lots been developed already?? we have someone who sees a future for this area of the city, is willing to put up their money, what more could we want. i walk this stretch of Broad street every morning and would love to see something besides empty lots.

shockoe bottom development occured because small businessmen took risks.

God bless them and you, but look at the bottom today, it is still underutilized and unsafe. It takes a bit of foolhardiness and chutzpah to wander there off hours. I should be the heartbeat of Richmond.

There are many that dismiss this out of hand, but done right it could be the signature development of Richmond. It brings what most other developments don’t, a steady supply of customers and out of town visitors. It also acts as a draw for suburbanites to rediscover the heritage and history of Richmond. Minor League Ball is in many regards better than it’s major league cousins, without the massive salaries and egos that come with it.

http://downtownrichmond.blogspot.com/2008/01/take-me-out-to-ballpark.html

http://downtownrichmond.blogspot.com/2008/12/case-for-baseball-downtown.html

http://slantblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/baseball-in-richmond-moving-to-back.html

It is a bit fuzzy but i do remember driving up from Newport News on weekends to go to Main Street Station when they had indoor flea markets that seemd to be busy then. But a building like that can’t survive on a few bargain booths!

Then they spent what… $60+ million to restore the building and at the 11th hour the government (Amtrak) decided not to utilize the station after all. There we were with a new parking deck, banners, and big plans for the Grand Opening knowing it was dead from the start. That was the government’s idea but still like to see train services go out of there and would be a positive thing if they open a stadium within walking distance from it.

Eric

Eric – Main Street Station is in fact an active Amtrak station. It is just not as primary as the staples mill station.

More debate here:

http://slantblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/baseball-in-richmond-moving-to-back.html

Does Murden support this? Because Dotts has not in the past.

“While Dotts was working to block a new ballpark in Shockoe Bottom in 2004, H. Louis Salomonsky, a pre-eminent developer who went to prison for bribing a city councilwoman, warned her that “there are powerful forces out there, and they can destroy you.”

I have said it before, and I will say it again- I think the Diamond’s best days have yet to come. I am looking forward to the day I can take a street car from my neighborhood, ride to the Boulevard, and enjoy a ‘Thirsty Thursday’ at a refurbished, solar-paneled Diamond.

re post 37:

Yes you can. I have used Main Street station to ride to Alexandria. The problem is that there are only couple of trains that actually stop there each day.

The crazy thing is, all the trains on the line actually go right past Main Street on their way to Staples Mill. They just don’t stop.

g im not against development in the bottom. to hammer a point home… not a bullshit FEELGOOD STADIUM DEBACLE. howabout some actual stuff a neighborhood could use.as far as people being skeered to go to thebottom. get over yourslf. there is enough police presence downtown to suggest an urban fortress. your unease surely springs fromyour own fears and prejudices more than crime statistics.g the part about fear and nightlife was directed at post 30 not you.not against a stadium either. why leave the blvd when it is already being revitalized?AND AGAIN WHERE IS THE TEAM?if you build will they come.?buddycorbett

Here’s the trains schedule from Richmond Gov.
http://www.richmondgov.com/departments/publicworks/mainstreet/amtrak.aspx

One of the major problems with the Main Street site is rail congestion between there and Staples Mill. Leaving from downtown adds at least 30 minutes to trip going north and two hours or more to connect to trains going south.

Let me know if you need another voice or different perspective at your next meeting.

Broad Lifer- Who was involved in the previous venture, that you reference?

Scott- I have a hard time following your line of thought for the green prospects of the Diamond versus this project. The overall Highwoods’ development (Shockoe and Blvd) is much greener when you look at the walkability, multimodal, density, mixed use, etc. aspects of the developments. I think a better argument would be to fight for the buildings to be LEED/Earthcraft, ensure green space, and encourage other sustainable design elements. The Diamond is in a sea of concrete on a poorly developed and laid out site, with very little green space (except the field). Instead of fighting against every development, I think it would be more efficient to argue for more progressive development.

let me know if you need someone to attend the meeting that can stay the whole time

lol.

The stadium won’t destroy the Farmer’s Market. I do think those buildings at 17th and Franklin up to the bakery would be demolished.

In a grander scheme, I’d love to see the upper valley developed into something useful than an industrial/correctional wasteland with a 6 lane road. There could be condos or whatever lining the highway up the valley built above the train tracks. People don’t necessarily have to use Broad St’s exit to get back on the highway. Depending on where they’re coming from, those from the north and west can go up 18th until it merges with Oliver Hill, take Hospital St to 5th and get on 95 from there. If they ever clean up and clear out Whitcomb court, they can go the other way up Bowling Green to Whitcomb St to Mechanicsville or just take Fairfield Way to Mechanicsville. They can hop on the Downtown Expressway… Hull to 4th to the Maury St ramp… plenty of ways to get on the highway.

Sugar Bottom,

You may not want or need baseball, however, as this thread has suggested, there are many others that do. I might add, that it’s not you that needs convincing…

You obviously have not studied the plan that well. From what I can tell, this project will not affect the slave burial ground, would not pave over the Farmer’s Market, and includes some sort of slavery museum. Are you suggesting that anything that has anything whatsoever to do with slavery should be left “as is”? With the exception of the burial ground of course. There, I imagine, you would support removing the pavement. Are we to leave the entire area down there undeveloped since it has ties to the past that, according to you, we need to confront? BY THE WAY, THE PLAN INCLUDES A MUESEUM OF SOME SORT THAT ADDRESSES THE SLAVERY ISSUE.

This area has been living in the past for far too long. This area is in all practical purposes a wasteland…it desperately needs something that might add to the vitality of the area. Whether you like it or not, progress does pave over the past…it’s just a fact of life and one we must all deal with.

Additionally, traffic ia addressed in the plan and in this thread.

I also agree with Scott that schools and reducing crime are important; however, the money spent on this project would not be going towards schools or reducing crime if this project were not to go forward.

BuddyCorbett,

Good Lord! Can you, for once, stop your incessant bitching and complaining? You’ve gotten so damn nasty on here that no one really cares what you have to say!

I’m not here to argue back and forth, just go give input. Isn’t the lighting from Velvet or the noice from the fairgrounds during race season enough?
2. Who is going to get people to come to the games, you may have noticed that the current stadium is only filled up on fireworks evenings. 3. Why this historic area? Monument Avenue is ripe for gas stations, fast food eateries, you could tear down any of the statues and put a 7-11 up for visitors to be able to eat and get gas while touring (most of them don’t know to go over to Cary St. or Broad St.or the local fam eateries), on the western end of the street where houses are not so historic, the developers could buy up/tear down and build a nice ball park. 4. You have to remember it will be lots easier to bring county people into the west end than in to the dreaded downtown. 5. I’m not even going to comment on the entry ramp/exit ramp traffic onto 95. 6. Here is the real problem as I see it, the city hasn’t even really helped the Battery Park neighborhood as I see it, my advise is to fix what you got before venturing into anything else. Why can’t the current ball stadium be fixed with a deal with VCU?

Scott,

Point taken and I agree the schools are in violation of federal law. However, if memory serves me correctly, some schools were given money to correct these violations, I believe, several times but still the violations were not taken care of. Then, afterwards, the schools were not able to come up with a plausible explanation of what actually happened to said money. I’m all for giving additional funding to schools but administrators need to be able to account for that money and what it’s going towards before we should just let funds flow freely. Of course, that would be a topic for an entirely different thread…

People DID come to games at the old stadium, and not just on fireworks events. Have you ever been to a game? The stadium certainly was not full, but it was far from empty.

The new stadium will be smaller, reflecting more closely the actual attendance of the games.

I think more people would be attracted to go to the Shockoe location. I mean, they showed up for the falling down, total lack of atmosphere, drainage problem-plagued Diamond. This one will have so much more to offer.

However, I think one thing that really helped the Diamond was its low admission price. The new stadium would need to keep its tickets low-priced as well.

Our family was one of many families that flocked to the Diamond. We would go to at least two games a summer and there were plenty of people there. It was the low prices and the family fun that drew us there.

I also see opportunities for local business in the form of seasons tickets. I know my company had a box at the Diamond and it was our favorite employee event.

Anyone that says there is no interest in baseball in Richmond is simple not correct.

Scott #55, once again, your concerns about school funding are valid, but your blame is misdirected.

If you’re really concerned about money for education, you need to look at the other side of Broad Street, to the guys in the General Assembly Building.

According to the VEA, “Virginia’s current level of state support of education spending is a low 39.1%, while the national average is 47.6%. The average contribution of Southeastern states is 50.2%. Of course these rankings are relative. But they mean that 32 states, including five in our region (North Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, Georgia and Maryland), are providing more funding for their students than Virginia does today.”

Throwing education funding around as a reason for the city of Richmond to oppose new economic development is a red herring, at best.

Melissa #59, do you have links to any of these studies? Are you looking at major league teams in big cities like DC, or minor league stadiums in markets comparable to Richmond?

I’m genuinely curious, because my cursory Googling has returned a bunch of stories that affirm the exact opposite.

Headlines include “Downtown Ballpark Helped Reinvent Durham,” “Ballpark is Inspiring Memphis Downtown,” “Minor Miracle Ballpark Sparks Revival in Dayton.”

Do you have any examples?

tiny,
I would suggest there are several urban minor league ballpark/ economic development plans that have not gone well. A search of the News archives at http://www.ballparkdigest.com reveals the following failed/failing projects.

Nashville Sounds(AAA)- a downtown mixed-use project very similar to Global’s was being touted back during our own Shockoe – Round One. The projected numbers never matched up with the promises.Local government chose not to participate.The team’s new owners are going to make do with the existing park; new proposals are not downtown.

Charlotte Knights(AAA)- uptown project faltered when cost projections kept rising and legal challenges persisted. Public financing was withdrawn.Meanwhile their current landlord (York Co.,SC) has put the land under their current stadium up for sale.

Portland, Oregon Beavers(AAA) – Still in the proposal stage. Proponents want a $85 million bond issue; government wants the sponsors to guarantee repayment.

Winston-Salem (whose new team name escapes me). New stadium is nearing completion – owner has run out of money. He approached the city for $16 million to finish the park. Having already chipped in $12 million, the city says ‘No more.’

Mr. Kreckman alluded to the Diamond being the last of the big above-ground parks. It appears that the combination of the economy and lack of clear economic benefits may result in mixed-use/baseball parks being this generations dinosaurs.

Right ptaylor… let’s do nothing at all. That’s the Richmond way!

Re # 53 by Paul

I do agree that there should be a park too with the creek actually flowing. I wouldn’t mind a Shockoe Valley Park all the way from Rady St to about Brown St. But I’d still like to see something there visible from the highway after coming past downtown so that it doesn’t just end right as you get there.

RE # 54 by Queen Mum

Well Velvet’s lights aren’t that big of a problem. I actually like the lights… we need to be a brighter city, not a dark, Gothamesque place. The search lights add to the night skyline which also needs better, more attractive and creative lighting on par with other cities. I didn’t think Shockoe Bottom could hear RIR.

People will come to the games. Look at the number of people who were outraged the Braves left. I said good riddance and admit I am not a sports fan. I haven’t been to a baseball game since 1990, but that’s just me. Don’t think I alone will make a baseball stadium or team unnecessary ventures. And I don’t think every game anywhere sells out every single game. I don’t know why people expect every seat to be filled every game in order to prove popularity and viability.

Why not this historic area? We need a better downtown and a better Shockoe Bottom. I can not understand for the life of me why people are satisfied with the vacant lots and surface parking lots. They’re so attractive and oh so historic. We even have vacant buildings that I guess should stay vacant. Why not Monument Avenue? There’s nothing to develop on Monument.

The west end, county and city, is overdeveloped and Nimbys will definitely kill a stadium proposal there. Besides those neighborhoods in the west end of the city are over 50 years old which would make them eligible for historic preservation. Also why give suburbanites even more stuff? We can lure them into the city to spend money here just as well as the counties lure city residents for everything else to spend money. Empty lots and unused buildings create an unsafe image that keeps them away from Shockoe Bottom and downtown. It seems you’re in favor of keeping people out of the downtown area and keeping the unsafe image. We need better. How could you be against better?

If I can remember correctly, Battery Park’s situation was fixed and the park is being repaired.

Put a Trader Joe’s or Whole Foods in the bottom and people will come. Just about everyone I know reluctantly drives out to Short Pump to buy from these stores. We need a good quality grocery store in the area.

I’m glad to see this debate up running these days. On this particular street in Downtown from Belivdere Street to Shockoe Bottom, I counted more than 20 parking garages/surface parking lots! Not only that, on North 7th St between East Duval Street and East Broad Street, I counted about 10 parking garages/surface parking lots as well! Last week, I was on the observation deck at City Hall, I tried to count the numbers of parking garages/surface parking lots — needless to say, I lost the count. There are simply too *many* of them in Downtown and Shockoe Bottom. People needs to use public transportation or be creative in finding places to park like I did when I lived in DC and New York.

I am in favor of having a ballpark in Shockoe Bottom. Simply put, it WILL revitalize the area and bring much-needed revenues to boost the school system among other things as well.

As for Main Street Station, the problem lies with whom? Henrico County who has basically pressured the government to remain committed with Staples Mills Station as the “hub” of Richmond Amtrak Station rather than Main Street Station.

Look at Penn Station in NYC & Baltimore, Union Station in Washington, DC and 30th Street Station in Philadelphia and yes, Wilmington Train Station — none are situated outside of the city limits. In fact, they are located in downtown.

Perhaps the biggest mistake with the city of Richmond is that it spreads itself all over the place, trying to place the amtrak train station far away, the greyhound bus station on Boulevard, Coliseum in Downtown, Diamond in Boulevard, Short Pump Town Center in Short Pump … instead of alleviating it all together to create a vibrant city in Downtown.

This is why Atlanta, Miami and Charlotte has passed Richmond by since then.

Time for Richmond to get with the program and build a ballpark in Shockoe Bottom and integrate the GRTC system, bus station and train station to Main Street Station as the focal point of the city — if that happens, this will *work*.

R-

To: One and Only Ridor- You want me to buy you drinks and throw rose petals at your feet! Fix up the bottom! They could put anything there- and it would be hated. This thread is waaaaaaaaay to long. Let’s end it on the positive vision of the last post, Okay?

I have seen two transitions from old and fugly to new and downtown in my life growing up in Arkansas before transplanting here. Memphis is amazing, it has really helped to draw more regular visitors to Beale and the downtown area. The move from old and busted in Little Rock to right across the river in downtown North Little Rock has been an amazing success for the Little Rock/North Little Rock river market. Granted, one thing both areas have that we do not is some form of trolley service! (but I will leave that to another debate)

During law school I attended games at the Diamond probably 8-9 times (none of which were fireworks nights) and I am very convinced it is not possible for the same type of atmosphere to exist there as the other two examples I mentioned (at least not in the next 20 years). “Buzz and Ned’s” is the only thing worth venturing into, and the area doesn’t look as ripe for rapid redevelopment as a downtown type landscape. Furthermore, as was mentioned, if a new project is started the diamond stands ready to get baseball back as early as 2010. This would not exist as an option if the diamond was being renovated (which would take about as long as new construction because it is a horrible horrible facility).

Part of the reason folks go to the games in Memphis and LR-NLR is due to the atmosphere. I can make an entire day or night of it with my car only hitting one parking spot. If with younger cousins or something it involves looking at all the neat stuff along the shops and historic sites and hitting something cool like http://www.bluescitypastry.com , with a crew of friends it becomes drinking and enjoying local food before and after the game like we would in fan bars or along cary st. downtown, and if with the girlfriend: lazy browsing and strolling along local shops before and something to drink and eat after the game. If during the week, happy hour then walk across to the game, etc, etc, ETC! That is why more people will turn out in shockhoe than the diamond. I will regardless, because I love minor league baseball and I am soon to have less studying to rob me from it! But I will be spending my drinking and dining dollars elsewhere on game day.

I really do not understand the complaint concerning historical sites. This seems to be a win-win. More traffic would be directed toward them on weekends and after work…EXPOSURE! How is that not addressing the past? Some kind of museum in the works as well as more attractive historical fact markers and you could have generations of people exposed to the history that otherwise would never have ventured over to that area. Why not also have a section of the stadium dedicated to the local history? A gallery walk of exhibits and info to make people more interested and intrigued enough to take the kids to the museum before the next game. That is one of the awesome abilities of the new downtown stadium designs, they encompass the entire field and give the opportunity to look much much better than the grand stand diamond as well as serving as a platform for people to look at a great many things placed in them!

Bah, I’m rambling now so I will cut it short, but I am very excited by the possibility of my new home getting a public project that I’ve witnessed work where I grew up!

SEW….anonymous wusses lose credibility because their personal biases can only be attributed to cowardice not reason. if you have an issue with someone not their argument have the wherewithall to say so . otherwise your mystery criticism falls off my shoulders like a soft rain. by the way no one has yet addressed WHYthe stadium should be moved from an area already enjoying a rebirth. an area with adequate hiway access and an existing stadium site should be abandoned in the middle of its renaissance? i am not against a stadium … just not one jammed into an unsuitable site. this thing is gonna look like a fat kid trying to work his way into a pair of too tight pants. finally if you want to use a lameass pseudonym….fine as long as your not making meanspirited attacks on those of us not frightened of standing behind what we believe. this is an issue that is not going to go away and hiding behind an avatar for whatever reason should not be acceptable. how about a little transparency from those of you who like to run yor mouths from behind cover. you are not whistleblowers afterall just mouthy cybergeeks afraid to take credit or blame for what you say.buddycorbett

The perfect evening out.

My wife and I along with our good friends James and Cindy and their nine-year-old son. Enter the gates of baseball stadium. We are greeted by the valet. We are escorted to our table in the baseball stadium dining hall, where our preferred beverages are already in place. Little Jimmy is taken to the baseball stadium nannies. After we are seated. The ladies wished to visit the salon, for a little touchup or a pedicure while the gentlemen discuss baseball, baseball politics, baseball business, etc.

When we asked our attendant to commence serving dinner, our food was presented and served from beautiful ornate baseball-shaped carts. Abundant selections served in the portions we desired. I had the garlic fillet with wild rice, I had them put that on the same plate. I also had a side of peanuts, Cracker Jack and mushrooms.

The baseball stadium attendant was very helpful in helping us choose the wine. The wine list was displayed on a large scoreboard with pictures of the bottles and a description of characteristics. This made it very easy for each of us to choose our favorite. While we had a leisurely dinner we enjoyed several innings. The young lady who sang Casey at the Bat was amazing. The Kings dance that night was a set from Field of Dreams, the umpire who had to judge the performance was absolutely hilarious.

Afterwords, James and I ascended to the baseball stadium roof for a cigar in lounge. James was very impressed by the one half acre infield overlooking the floodplain. He wants to reserve it for his sister’s pool party.

When we informed our baseball stadium attendant that we were ready to leave. We were treated to carry out selections from the dessert cart and beverage cart. I ordered hot dog-flavored tea, James got a Grassy Knoll (half astroturf, half coffee). My wife and Cindy both got the fresh strawberries dipped in pine tar and a bottle of water.

When we got to my car. Johnny was in the backseat playing with his new bat. The uniforms, and my wife’s cleats, which were in the trunk had been cleaned and pressed. My car had been freshly detailed, and the gas tank topped up. After we were handed our carry out selections, I looked around at everybody and said, it’s good to be the king. They all agreed.

Oh buddy. No one is hiding behind an avatar. Frankly, I think it is very wreckless to use your real name on the internet. We always warn our children to post personal information on the web and we are right. In this day of identity theft and with the propensity of some people to do bad things with the personal information you post online, it is really foolish to use your real name. Once you have posted it to the www, it will never go away.

#80 LOL! It’s the King’s Maidens in disguise http://chpn.net/news/2008/09/09/kings-maidens-3700-east-broad-wtf/ .

Seriously, can anyone answer my baseball business questions in post #79?

#80,

Hysterical! God it’s been a while since I have laughed so hard. By the way, whether you go to “King’s Maidens” or the Stadium, I guess you still get the wrong kid back at the end of the evening. You started the evening with Jimmy and ended up with Johnny!

b-a-l-l, #80
I’m crying! Absolutely the best post I’ve ever read!

RE #81: http://tinyurl.com/5xvr3t Getting a movie theater! Could turn into recreation row.

RE #90: Word.

RE:#92
The flood issue is a red herring. The Wilder administration has mislabeled the flood hazard area. They seem to think thast Zone X is the 500 year floodplain. It is not. (Determination of Flood Hazard Areas is under the sole authority of FEMA.) If you check the Flood Map Panel 41D posted at http://www.richmondsmayor.com/media/42793/5101290041d.pdf
You will note that the 0.2% flood probability (formerly known as the 500 year floodplain) actually occupies small pockets along the edge of the 1.0% probability zone(formerly known as the 100 year floodplain)(Look for the small white lines bordering the AE Zones)Most of the Zone X in the Bottom is not in any floodplain. The shaded area designated as Zone X outside these small pockets described above are the areas which were Zone A and Zone B BEFORE the floodwall was built. I have before me on my desk the 1979 edition of the floodmap. The outer boundaries of the flood hazard area before the floodwall are identical to the edge of the light blue area on page 13 of the Power Point presentation. Unless the floodwall fails, the corner of 18th & Grace is no more likely to flood than the playground up at the top of Jefferson Park.(Interestingly, I tried pulling this up on the FEMA floodmap site – it still references 510129 0010C – the old – 1998 – edition of this map.)The Wilder administration’s claim that the floodplain has been expanded is bogus – the study area has expanded upstream. The ‘limit of study’ line used to be under the MLK Bridge at Leigh St. The study area now extends up Shockoe Creek and Town Creek – the Bottom is essentially unchanged other than minor tweaks attributable to improved mapping techniques. The storwater runoff issue is governed by state law – I believe it’s a result of the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act. (If anybody knows otherwise, please correct me.)

I am not opposed to developing the Bottom. I loathe and despise incompetence in government – particularly when it is a grandstanding effort to salvage a deservedly tarnished reputation of El Doogie- who coincidentally lives in a shaded Zone X at Vistas on the James.

Ref. #88 –
It’s going to be tough to get information on the ballpark.Page 34 of the city/developer’s PowerPoint presentation the ballpark owner is listed on an organizational chart as “tax exempt TBA.” There is no ball team, there is no ballpark owner, there is no ballpark operator. But, hey, relax,
the same chart shows that there are not one, not two, but three specific law firms already lined up. Coincidentally, all three have been part of Wilder’s legal team during the festival of foolishness that has been the hallmark of his tenure.

I am not opposed to development in the Bottom. There is a demonstrated demand for office space, there is a demonstrated demand for residential uses, there is a demonstrated demand for retail. (The plan calls for 80000sf of retail – for comparison, the supermarket in the 2400 block of E Main occupies +/-40,000 sq.ft.; the CVS in the same block occupies +/- 10000 sf.)I suggest the catalyst of the GRTC transit center – which will be built with or without baseball – will have a greater impact than the alleged catalyst of baseball.

#93 – Flooding does remain a concern for me. Maybe what you say is true, but I was here in 89 when it flooded and the whole area was under water. Maybe the flood wall was supposed to fix this?

From what I’ve heard, engineers have devised a plan: the bottom stadium will be the drain for the city during heavy rain storms like Gaston. The stadium will be one gigantic sink.

Re: Main Street Station – I was there a couple of months ago taking the train to Quantico and had a nice conversation with one of the employees there who told me that the masterplan of the station includes shutting down the Staples Mill station altogether in the next few years and making Main Street the only Richmond station. Before that occurs, the train tracks must be improved to allow trains to travel faster on the elevated tracks. I haven’t seen anything in writing, so call it a rumor.

@buddycorbet- you know what PTBarnum said -a sucker is born every minute. maybe the develpooper can do a virtual computer design of the stadium, with a virtual demonstration of how a flood will affect the stadium, and all the supporters of this tax boondoggle can get all glassy eyed. I dont need anybody else puttin their hand in my pocket for my money, i got enuf of em already. What taxes we pay need to go to more important things. If it wasnt for the chance to get our taxmoney this developer would disappear.

Kathryn B…

Sounds interesting but why would they need to fix tracks for “speed” when you can only get one train at a time through there and going only so fast past the station? It has worked for over 100 years, why aren’t they sufficient any longer?

I posted this already but I think some have missed it….The federal gov’t announced an investment in Main Street Station to add track and increase the number of trains (and decrease the number of backups).

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/search.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-10-01-0142.html

Eric S. Huffstutler , post # 96.

First, this is NOT Churchhill we are talking about. This is the Bottom.

Second, this is a largely empty swath of land that is nothing but an eyesore. Old does not = historic.

Any plan to build a ballpark should 100% take into account the excavation site for Lumpkin’s jail. A ballpark and museum with shops, restaurants, etc would work very nice down there together.

Scott #104—
You might be right on if this area was not in a federal-government-designated flood plain. A few nice lights, trees and some new sidewalks typically spur smaller scale investment in areas like this.

However, not withstanding the confusing information in post 92, the area IS in a federal flood plain. The engineering requirements in a flood plain make developing lot-by-lot impossible for a small investor. Only a comprehensive plan is feasible.

“a boatload of new tourists”
Heard that one before.

There are better ways for the City to invest $53 million, ways that would actually benefit citizens, instead of “a boatload of new tourists”.

Again, it comes down to responsible public priorities. Tell Salomonsky and the other developers to go ask Congress for a bail-out. Maybe they can bribe someone there, but NO MORE DOWNTOWN CORPORATE WELFARE.

Related, can someone answer this?

Why hasn’t ACORN or others taken the Emily Winfree cottage under their wing years ago and restore it? It was moved to behind the Exxon on Broad in 2003 and nothing ever done to it but to sit and rot away in the elements resting on a transport trailer. Where do they plan to place it to restore in Shockoe? Will that be in the way of this ball park proposal?

Eric

You have it backwards Scott. This is not to benefit tourists, which was a poor choice of words on my part. Many of these “tourists” are Richmonders living in the suburbs that rarely come downtown. Part of the idea is to draw 400,000 to 500,000 people downtown each year where they can support the local economy, provide local jobs, and generate local tax dollars. At the same time we could address local infrastructure and flooding problems. Those are responsible public priorities.

Shall we at least wait till this is presented to Council in March.

hey joe,if you read burgers submissions you could see that he is for lots of good stuff…just maybe not stuff you like. its an old ,stupid tactic to to accuse others of blanket criticism because they dont agree with your views. you know like calling others unpatriotic because they dont act like kneejerk apologists for failed foreign policies. opponents of the downtown stadium are a varied bunch brought together by a realization that this project at the end of the day is a stupid ass idea. numerous reasons why it sucks out loud have been exhaustively enumerated on this thread so if your too closeminded or stupid to read em go play a video game or whatever a douchebag does to pass the time. you know what my name is you anonymous geek feel free to run your mouth.buddycorbett

John summarizes his reasons here: http://chpn.net/news/2008/08/13/in-response-to-a-poisonous-environment/

Frankly, a few posters, whether than use their real name or name, can’t seem to make their argument without verbally abusing those who disagree with them. That made for a site that turned a lot of people off. I am glad that there is a higher level of decorum and flat out mean attacks are no longer tolerated.

No Scott, that doesn’t get old, but your opposition to almost every proposal ever presented in the last few years is getting old. You’re almost like your buddy Luis Pantophlet except you don’t drag race into everything. I wasn’t for the original stadium proposal in the Bottom for reasons that are not concerns for me this time around. I would love to see something other than vacant lots down there and even if you planted trees along the sidewalks, those lots will still be empty. The vacant lots are not historic and some of the buildings aren’t either. I can only see losing possibly the buildings along 17th north of Franklin and Loving’s former building. In the first proposal the buildings along 17th were going to be demolished then the revised plan saved them minus the bakery. I would still like to see them preserved, but you know very well, we can’t preserve everything. If it means losing a few buildings to jumpstart the area and building something for the future to preserve as well as bringing money in to support our economy which hasn’t had a fair hand dealt compared to the counties, then I’m for it. We can do everything you’re for in that list minus the Diamond and build this development. You make it seem like this city can’t walk and breathe at the same time.

Scott –

I have appreciated the thought and logic in each and every one of your comments. Thank you for being so diligent in representing folks who know that dumping cash at any situation is about the most ignorant thing that can be done. It is a short sighted choice that is based on a quick-fix mentality, and is so embarrassing that most of the intelligent people that I know have completely backed out from being involved in their communities past a very local level.

What gets old, to me, is the shutting down of healthy discourse by negative folks who can’t seem to think past insults.

And I will reiterate what they said:

“Historic demolitions have destroyed much of the city’s unique character.”

Eric

The stadium will be entertainment for some but not the answer to raising the significant tax dollars we will need. Like I said in a previous post, baseball is more like the ballet -it requires additional funding to survive.

“No Scott, that doesn’t get old, but your opposition to almost every proposal ever presented in the last few years is getting old.”

Maybe we need better proposals. Believe me, its tiring to have to fight the Shockoe stadium battle every two years. Its almost as bad as VCU’s encroachment into Oregon Hill. Talk about old crap, I thought Richmond was ready to move ahead with the Boulevard rehab. Certainly the new movie theaters, the first new first run movie theaters we have had in the City in decades, is promising.

I agree that we should wait until the Council meeting to make a hard-and-fast decision on whether the stadium is a good idea. I would love to see the stadium built there, however, I want to have a better understanding of the financing structure (of which we can only make certain assumptions now) before I make my final judgment. I think it is in bad taste to vehemently deny the city this opportunity because you didn’t like the proposal 2-4 years ago and won’t take the time to learn about this one.

gray- Why should the city be allowed to expand? They haven’t properly managed what they have. We don’t need to expand our geographic territory to grow. We need to properly redevelop and revitalize the city and draw residents back. Only once we do the best with what we have should the city be allowed to expand.

Not only cannot we annex, but the Dillon rule sets locals jurisdictions against each other. A gain for the City is a loss by the county.

#134/Liberty:

You quoted a comment I made and then did not address it at all, but made a statement about something completely different.

Yes, public financing can control what art organizations and individuals do by virtue of who’s at the purse strings at the time. Still, the “edgy” stuff is usually funded outside of venues that are non-profit, not ticket sales/profit driven venues. Commercial art that relies completely on a capitalistic marketplace (not non-profit, but for-profit) usually does not produce “edgy” stuff. Sometimes it does, depending…

Mr. Burger seems to agrees somewhat, but was talking about the funding of a venue that could turn into a black hole, which I get and sort of agree with.

What’s your point exactly that you disagree about? I didn’t see a completed argument in you last comment. Off thread again…

hillkid-yea there is a bit of confusion here, I hate non-profit anything, to me it is a wolf in sheeps clothing, because someone is non-profit they seem to be egalitarian but in reality they are telling the consumer to shove it, non-profits completely ignore Prices which determine the value of goods and services in a marketplace. If they are not for profit what are they for? LOss? its basically communism, pricing determined by experts and not by consumers. What i thought you were saying is that superior art develops in non-profit setting. I believe great art comes from a free market where price matters and art goes to the higgest bidder and the highest value is freely placed on a work of art by a consumer making free choices in the art market, not by some govt. funded art sold by some non-profit aka for-loss entity. off thread-but what the heck, it threads back to the public financing of this ball-park, if its such a good idea then do it yourself and stop beggin for money from the public treasury.

Cadeho-yeah during gaston, the drainage pipes were to small and some pump that was supposed to pump the water got its electricity shorted out, supposedly that was all fixed. I thought Bacons’ ghost would be cool he was a man of the people, but i dont know why he burned down the jamestown church, he was fed up with the govt. funny thing about the floodwall i heard it blocked the water from draining into the river. Our new Rev Mayor said he thinks southside is a good place for a stadium, i kind of agree, REv Mayor won the election in large part to winning southside, his church is located there, southside has been neglected for a long time.

Cadeho, you make good points about flooding. One bonus of the Ball Park plan is that the developers will build the infrastructure to prevent flooding. The cost of this infrastructure would be too much for the small businesses there to bear and would benefit everyone.

The ‘flood –related’ improvements may well be required by mandates from higher levels of government. . Is the big hole ballpark the best idea. (Oh lord, are we going to have to endure another big hole on /off Broad St.)? The waters that flooded the Bottom during Gaston fell not only in the Bottom, but in Ginter Park and Oak Hill Plaza on Mechanicsville Tpk & Harvie Rd., and ,indeed, on the Diamond. The proposal at hand appears to provide a spot solution for a linear (with tributaries) problem.. The FEMA map revision is irrelevant to a large extent. As clearly stated on the map, it is a Flood Insurance Rate Map. Its intended use is to establish boundaries for underwriting the NFIP. Many localities use its 100 year boundaries by proxy because they are derived from uniform standards and are widely available (and were in pre-Internet days) – oh, and the mapping is done on the feds’ budget. The area of study was expanded. The Shockoe / Bacons Quarter watershed extends up from the Bottom beyond Mechanicsville Tpk., up to Laburnum and westward to the area SW of the I-95 /Blvd interchange. Areas of future development in the watershed include the Diamond / Boulevard, Carrington Gardens/Dove Court, Gilpin Court, Upper Shockoe Valley/ Valley Rd area. The extension of flood insurance underwriting coverage does not change the flood profile. A given amount of rain falling on the area would have the same effect on the same topogrsphy before and after the mapping. Given the skeletal outlines of the current proposals, would it make more sense to break up the retention volume from one large pit, into a tiered series of smaller water troughs, ponds, sloughs and manmade marshes dealing with runoff closer to the sources of the runoff. Ancient societies understood drainage; it is one of the most basic of municipal services.

Will future development be restricted to approved participants in similar quasi- public/private ventures. Will each development require a new CDA and separate bond issue Who will maintain the drainage structures? Who will co-ordinate and control the chaos? What are the relative costs and benefits of doing stormwater control this way as opposed to a city stormwater utility.? Such questions are not for mere mortals like ourselves. Will the lawyers, bankers, and sometimes, engineers get their billed fees? You betcha! Will the taxpayers get their promised benefits?

Don’t Worry. Be Happy. Merry Christmas.

ptaylor, we need to sit down and discuss the Stormwater Utility at some point soon. As you know, I bow before your research and we are almost always on the same page in regard to these ‘Richmond dramas’ as you so richly call them. And, as I think we have establshed previously, we share the same concerns about the proposed Stormwater Utility- in its current form it could be more about corporate welfare than actually taking care of the stormwater problem.

That said, as an environmentalist, I am for a real Stormwater Utility that fairly charges fees and actually works to prevent stormwater runoff. We need to think about ‘daylighting’ Shockoe Creek and restoring its natural function. We need to get the City to change its rainwater philosphy from ‘big pipes’ to move it to ‘treat it where it falls’. We need a residential rainwater barrel program. As I have told Mayor-Elect Jones, this is a place where ‘green jobs’ can be created.

Thank you for giving this matter more attention in relation to the irksome, zombie-like Shockoe stadium proposal and debate.

Gosh, you guys are bunch of cynics. The government is not out to get us, although it is often mismanaged. This is why nothing ever gets off the ground in Richmond.

edg- In my opinion the govt. needs to get out of the way in order for things to get off the ground in Richmond. Its not the govt.’s role to bring baseball to a community, if its such a good idea why do they need our tax money? There are much better uses of our tax dollars.

Agreed. To sum it up, we give the developers valuable land, taxpayer money, and a promise to maintain the baseball park (can’t be cheap). If the stadium fails, taxpayers will pay again. Only the developers stand to gain riches, even in failure. Here is a good quote from the article: “The proposed bond issue for a ballpark not only denies the city any immediate return but also, like other aspects of the proposal, privatizes gain while socializing risk.”

Sounds like welfare for the wealthy.

When I take a risk in a small business, I reap the benefits or suffer the losses -it’s my burden. No one comes in to the rescue.

What are the realestate taxes the big business guys must pay on free land?

Its called corporate welfare and its been an ongoing problem with Richmond.

http://www.vagreenparty.org/richblog/?p=18

Let’s just get Scott and gray to plant a tree on each vacant lot and let it stay like it is forever, amen.

The head of the Shockoe Bottom Neighborhood Association wrote a relevant letter to the editor on this issue.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/opinion/letters/article/NAPIERD_20090123-210812/187273/