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POLL: Do you favor baseball in Shockoe?
06/17/2013 8:33 PM by John M
We’ve got a poll running on the top left of the main page of the site. Do you patriotic duty and vote YES, NO, or DON’T CARE.
NO, I don’t favor a baseball stadium in Shockoe Bottom. Who the heck keeps coming up with this stupid suggestion? Obviously someone that doesn’t live in the area because if they would know why it’s the most idiotic and wasteful idea ever!!Obviously they are not there at rush hour!
Vote NO! And vote often 😉
No! I can’t understand the whole economic rational for moving the stadium. The merchants in the bottom think they will get increased business but at games people eat ballpark food and bring their kids who eat lots of ballpark food and are not going out for a gourmet pizza and beer after the game. It’s just a crazy idea from so many standpoints.
Don’t move the stadium.
Keep baseball where it is.
Please redevelop the Boulevard for mixed use. I would love to see a Target and a Whole Foods, I would love to not give Henrico that tax money any longer.
Please put the new baseball stadium in Shockoe. I haven’t heard any other proposal that would meet the requirements of the area as a flood plain, and I hate how that area has been vacant and raggedy for over a generation.
NO
The baseball stadium in Shockoe Valley is a miserable idea for several reasons.
To do so requires we ignore the unique history of the area, an area forever stained by generations of the slave trade in Richmond. The idea of making an entertainment center out of one of the most tragic episodes in American history can only be termed as sad as it is pathetic. The so-called leadership of this city seems completely tone-deaf to the idea of African American Heritage Tourism. The stadium would forever demonstrate we don’t and won’t honor or even acknowledge what happened in Shockoe, care nothing for the past, and are a city motivated by glitz and greed.
The stadium idea flies in the face of the preservation movement in Richmond, a movement that is trying to capitalize on our history and prevent the city from looking like Charlotte North. The fill that was pushed into Shockoe Valley consisted of the homes and stores, streets and neighborhoods of Navy Hill and Jackson Ward. Let’s not perpetuate the dreadful mistakes made in the 1950s by continued desecration of this city.
To put a stadium in Shockoe Valley would be a monumental and permanent traffic disaster and the infrastructure that would be necessary to channel traffic in and out of this area would be a nightmare that is seldom mentioned, filling the valley with exhaust and hundreds of vehicles. It would be a real urban nightmare; repulsive on many levels and nothing like the moronic festival-flag flying conceptual drawings we have seen. Nobody complains about access to the site where the Diamond is now. Let’s keep it there.
Above all, why is this bad idea so persistent? Is there anybody who believes the Redskin training facility wasn’t fueled by influence and payoffs to our local politicians? The same stench of back room deal travels with the stadium concept and its return again and again is not created by baseball fans but by moneyed people who have determined to make a ton of money off the construction of this monstrosity.
Heck, yeah, redevelop the bombed out hole that is Shockoe Bottom on Broad Street. Not only will a new stadium (if done respectfully, including mixed use development along the street fronts and minimizing surface parking) take this massive wasteland and convert it into productive real estate and a major downtown attraction, it will allow the Boulevard site to be redeveloped into a significant mixed-use shopping destination that will, like shaky said, keep Richmonders’ taxes in Richmond instead of funneling them off to Henrico County every time we go to Target or Walmart. Imagine a smaller version of Short Pump along Boulevard (mixed use, big box stores developed around new apartments and town houses – but actually part of a real city instead of a pretend little town). I personally can’t stand going to Short Pump, but I go and spend a decent amount of money there each year (grudgingly making my donation to Henrico County’s coffers). Richmond needs to figure out how to keep and bring as much money into the city as possible and it doesn’t help that the county’s are sucking money out of the city every time Richmonders shop outside of Richmond.
And, seriously, Samuels needs to recognize that leaders are elected to lead not abdicate responsibility for decision making and throw it to the masses, most of whom, including myself, are not experienced in making mutli-million dollar real estate and economic and community development decisions that will shape portions of the city for decades to come. Samuels needs to learn to depend on the city’s professional staff and consultants and then make his own decision based on feedback from his constituents. Samuels needs to accept his responsibility as a leader of the city and then allow the democratic process to work.
NO
Am I the only person who thinks its bizarre to see people protesting the “desecration” of Shockoe Bottom, standing in front of a gas station, a McDonalds, and a giant empty parking lot? Richmond Defender, you’ve got a lot more you need to Defend than a bunch of weeds, broken glass, and vacant buildings.
I say build the damn thing already-
NO. Embarrassingly stupid idea.
No
The reason I don’t like a “yes” or “no” poll is that so few of us have all the details on what this would mean. What is the cost differential? What happens to the Flying Squirrels if they don’t move to Shockoe? What is most likely to happen in the two locations if a new ball park is not in the works. I don’t see the bottom being able to handle much more traffic even with some lane widening. So until I see a complete analysis of these two scenarios from an independent source, I’m going with “no.” John, any chance you could create a this type of unbiased comprehensive analysis for the rest of us?
Can we please have a decent grocery store instead of a ball park in Shockoe? It seems to me that a quality grocer would be more practical and appreciated, especially with condos and apartments being built on every other block in the Bottom. Why should the Boulevard be redeveloped into MORE stores, when there’s a Kroger superstore, Martin’s, Ellwood’s and Fresh Market all within a mile and a half of the current ball park? Isn’t the market saturated enough? When we in the Church Hill/Shockoe neighborhoods have a single, mediocre, overpriced, grocery store where customers can’t even roll their carts to the car because of sidewalk barriers.
It’s obvious from the way this idea keeps resurfacing year after year despite minimal public support that it’s a boondoggle being pushed by those who would benefit (the developers) with no concern for whether people want it or not. They’ll hammer away at it until people accept it as an inevitability.
Traffic there is already a mess at busy times, and the plans I’ve seen showed minimal upgrades for traffic handling. That’s because there’s no room to do the necessary upgrades without massive re-engineering.
Height restrictions mean they’re going to have to put the ball field itself below street level…in a flood plain. They’ll be building the world’s most expensive cement pond.
The economic wasteland surrounding the current stadium should show how ridiculous the idea is that this will be an economic engine. It’s too sporadic a crowd, and most people just want to go home after sitting in cramped seats in the heat and eating ballpark food.
Will the city ever accept the fact that suburban families simply don’t want to go downtown? There’s crime, and it’s inconvenient. Every city project aimed at drawing suburban families into the city has failed, and will continue to fail. It’s a stupid pipe dream.
What does work, on the other hand, is drawing childless young people who aren’t afraid of crime. Witness the only two things in downtown that are actually succeeding: VCU and Shockoe Bottom apartments.
Perhaps we could conduct another study.
NO. We don’t have the infrastructure for it.
How about a decent grocery store instead. As a Church Hill resident, the closest grocery store to me that I consider “decent” is the Kroger in Carytown. I own a car, but Shockoe and Downtown are filling up with young residents that don’t keep cars due to short commutes and lack of parking. For them, the closest grocery stores are miles away – well out of walking distance with groceries.
If you want to get people to live and spend dough downtown, subsidize something that will help them access their BASIC NEEDS first. Residents stimulate local economies, not visitors a couple times a week – who are probably not spending money anywhere but the ball park.
Please No!! Keep Baseball on the Boulevard!!
@Jessee
1. the way this idea keeps resurfacing year after year despite minimal public support that it’s a boondoggle
Somebody will make money, period. Hopefully a lot of people will make money, vendors, restaurant owners, museums, the City (increased property values, ), stadium workers, hotel owners…
2. Traffic (will be) a mess
Traffic will peak mostly at times when the Bottom is least busy, after 6 on weekdays and afternoons on weekends. Shockoe Bottom is also accessible by bus, bicycle and foot by thousands of those young singles and VCU students you are so fond of. Also, there are thousands of existing parking spaces within blocks. Downtown already handles tens of thousands more cars than a baseball game would draw.
3. (It’s) in a flood plain.
The most recent stadium design took this into account and provided the infrastructure to make the surrounding land useable.
4. The economic wasteland surrounding the current stadium
shows what a poor business model the Boulevard site is, a ballpark surrounded by acres of asphalt that feed directly onto a freeway. No wonder it’s an economic desert. Shockoe Bottom is walking distance to restaurants, museums, the Canal Walk and the James River.
5. suburban families simply don’t (won’t) want to go downtown
People will come by the thousands if you give them something to do, i.e. Monument 10K (30,000), Richmond Folk Festival (200,000), Broad Apetite (30,000), Bacon Festival (15,000). Suburban families are Richmond’s biggest potential market. It’s about time we took our cut.
There is no guarantee of success, but there are a lot of positives you ignore. A Shockoe Bottom stadium could be a game changer for downtown and the Bottom. A stadium on the Boulevard would continue to be the same old nothing.
One need only look at the traffic backups onto 95 that happened during the recent Bacon Festival to have a pretty good preview of what will happen on game day if a stadium goes into the bottom. But whatever transpires — no taxpayer money should be spent. If it’s a commercially viable idea, it shouldn’t require handouts from the city. If it does require handouts — then, well, it’s not a commercially viable idea and simply shouldn’t happen.
No one ever walks to a game at the diamond. Its not 1965.
Unless they build a direct access road in and out of the stadium/it’s associated parking facilities then NO. I’ve lived on the ‘Hill for 3 years now and it seems that with every apartment building that goes up in Shockoe, traffic gets worse on 17th/18th, broad, and Main/Cary.
Development of the area is sorely needed, but it needs to be smaller scale and well thought out. Why not keep the stadium on Boulevard with SportsBackers, the Redskins camp, and all the cool restaurants and bars that have taken the risk to set up in the area to serve baseball fans!
Voted NO, mirroring many of the sentiments above.. why can’t the City focus instead on repairing failing infrastructure and preserving history, as history is the number one tourism draw.. come on, they MUST understand that by now.
Thank you for setting up the poll, though a quick fyi- i’d love my spouse to have been able to click on the poll as well, but it appears it’s only allowing one vote per i.p. address? even though we have more than one computer 🙁
Not to worry, that vote will be registered from our business location instead. So that’s two NOs, and encouraging others to vote as well!
First, for the people who are calling for a grocery store…if Kroger or Martin’s or Food Lion thought they could make money there, I suspect it would already be built. No one can mandate a grocery store there–there has to be a business case for it, and apparently no one has made one strong enough to attract interest.
As for the baseball stadium, if the City is going insist on building a new one—and a new stadium is so low on the priority list—it makes more sense in the Bottom than it does in its current location. The Bottom is, at least partially, an entertainment district for the City. There are a fair number of clubs and restaurants in walking distance of the proposed location. Additionally, you have a lot of young, entertainment-seeking professionals in the surrounding apartments and lofts who would likely enjoy catching a game after work if it were marketed properly, thereby reducing the dependence on suburban patronage. Finally, the surrounding neighborhood is a better fit for the current rage of placing ballparks in settings that can incorporate historical views into the package…trains coming across the old trestles and the warehouses in the Bottom fit that to a tee.
While entertainment options are expanding on the Boulevard, they are still mostly south of Movieland in Scott’s Addition and require going over the overpass—a real psychological barrier to connecting the two areas. That means the Diamond is in a non-descript semi-industrial area with no other entertainment options beyond Kitchen 64 (and, I suppose, some cheap motels if your post-game entertainment is getting your freak on Bull Durham-style) in sight. Is it any surprise that folks hightail it home after a game? There’s nothing on that section of the Boulevard to keep them around.
The floodplain issue is a strictly an engineering problem. I assume that the design that is chosen will have mechanisms to deal with those issues.
Traffic? So many of you act as if it is Los Angeles and Northern Virginia right now. Half of the traffic problem on Broad in the bottom is because the two lights by the McDonald’s are not well-timed. Even with that issue, I have never waited more than two cycles to get through. This is a City. Occasional traffic and delays are often a factor of city life. If you think this is heavy traffic…or what a ballpark would bring is heavy traffic…you are not prepared for city living. You will enjoy New Kent or Powhatan. If you are really that afraid you won’t be able to get onto 64/95, you should learn how to go through Fairfield to get on 64 at 9 Mile. Might add 2 minutes to your route and you will avoid the traffic.
As for the slave history. We are not doing that history any honor with the scrubby lots, the sleazy Exxon or anything else. No one is building a slave museum—I think Doug Wilder tried that once and it went bankrupt. There can be displays, plaques and other informational presentations about the history built into the ballpark design. Annapolis did a great job of this when they configured their waterfront. There is not an inch of the older parts of Richmond that is history-free. We live in a city, not a museum. And nothing is preserved on that site has any real value other than moldering trash and weeds.
All that being said, I hope the city does nothing at all to build a new stadium for one reason—its just not a priority. Why the hell are we building a baseball stadium if we cannot get the roads properly paved, clean up our dilapidated public housing, ensure our storm drains are unclogged and aggressively pursue blight that is undermining many parts of Church Hill, Union Hill and the greater East End? The money that will be plowed into a stadium would be better used to keep the First Precinct police station fully staffed on the weekends or for interventions that improve outcomes in our public schools. No new stadium until the potholes are filled and the blight is removed. Let’s deal with the problems we have now that are going unaddressed rather than taking resources from those issues to plow into a stadium that the vast majority of City residents will never enter no matter where it is placed.
Post #25 sums it up best, and I completely agree with him! YES!
Well, judging from the polls, it seems to me that even though “No” is leading, “Yes” isn’t that far behind. Which proves what I’ve been saying all this time, the problem isn’t just leadership in city council, but as citizens of Richmond, we DO NOT unite and stand as one. We’re polarized from the ground-up, which in some cases is a issues for city council to lead because we as a people truly don’t know what we want.
Those in favor of the ball park in Shockoe Bottom sound like the same people who have been trying to sell it for the past Decade. Paul loves to go point for point but forgets
5. the only actual event in Shockoe Bottom that he mentioned was the Bacon Festival.
4. There were several projects that were to open up on the Bolevard in the Last plan set and several Business were set up to open but have gone backrupt waiting for a Ball park revival that never happened.
3. The area in question is a dranage point for many of the buildings in that area. Just check with the Dept of Works who had to clean that all out.
2. You like many others refuse to take into account that Shockoe Bottom has been over developed and over populated by all the new Apartments that have poped up there and have no parking for.And all the plans for a ballpark rely on Street Parking whuich is at a premium.
1. The People who want to profit plan to build not help the current Bars and Resteraunts that are there aready.I also love how they were trying to sell local eateries on this but never mentioned the construction that would close down their businesses due to lack of traffic. Most Minor Leauge parks never improve the area they are built in just ask the folks at Waterside in Norfolk how the Ballpark increased foot traffic because it didn’t. People drove to the park, ate at the park and left the park never going anywhere near the local businesses.
NO! I, for one, would not travel downtown for a ballgame. Reasons being….traffic, lack of parking, crime, too far to travel.
In my opinion, the conversation should be more about how to provide and new commercial infrastructure to surround the area of the existing baseball stadium. I always that the Boulevard and some surrounding underdeveloped areas could be perfect for an LA Live development or an entertainment complex of some sort.
Response to “Randal”. I can understand what you are saying and agree to a point. But one thing that does not seem to have been considered is the “clientele”. It is not necessarily a situation where “Build it and they will come.” Not everyone even cares about baseball. How else would the facility be utilized? Would the revenue the facility would generate even justify the expense of building it downtown? Having lived in RVA all my life, I would like to see the current facility upgraded and the area around it developed. As long as I can remember there has always been a ballpark there (Parker Field-originally Moore’s Field built in 1934 and later changed to Parker Field in 1954 to accommodate minor league baseball, and then changed to the Diamond in 1985). Apparently, it works. I’m not saying If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But what I am saying is that you have a proven commodity. Take what you know works and build on that.
I think I’m reiterating what others have said and what I’ve written on other threads when I say that Baseball in the Bottom can meet multiple needs. Like others, I am interested in preserving and interpreting Richmond’s African American history, but I believe that this goal is not mutually exclusive with a vibrant entertainment district. A well-designed ball field could abut or incorporate a museum space. Underground parking could be similarly incorporated into the design and could be made available for use during other peak downtown events (shamrock the block, the bacon festival, riverrock, the folk festival). The venue could be used for other events besides baseball as well (perhaps alleviating the need for a coliseum rehab). Perhaps families with kids won’t eat out after a game, but twenty-somethings or folks attending a concert/event might.
The traffic concerns strike me as insane – this is not Northern Virginia, Virginia Beach, let alone LA. We really don’t have a traffic problem in this town – we have 20 minutes of back up during rush hour. As a reverse-commuter, I’m confident that suburbanites entering the Bottom to attend a game would have a moderate impact on my commute. I’d certainly take that annoyance to see something vibrant in the Bottom.
Bombed out parking lots, McDonalds, panhandlers, grubby gas stations, empty storefronts, and shitty bars vs. a new well-planned (hopefully) multi-use structure. Money coming into the city instead of going out. Sounds good to me – redelop the Diamond. Create a mini-short pump as Brad suggested.
The current state of Shockoe Bottom is disgraceful
There is no “thriving business district” in the Boulevard that would suffer. Need I remind anyone, Bill’s BBQ closed in 2012. The stadium is just plain old.
I’d welcome it in Shockoe on the condition that infrastructure be addressed immediately (parking, traffic, 95 access, etc.)
Put it this way — it’s a much better alternative than the vacant parking lots, empty warehouses and “farmer’s market” that is there now. This area is ripe for development and investment and everyone realizes it except the people who live here. Such a shame, as this could be totally amazing.
Who wouldn’t want to walk down the hill and catch a game? Who wouldn’t want to stand on Grace St. Hill and see some fireworks?
Traffic would be problematic, but whatever happened to the plans to open up the Franklin corridor?
Yes.
The Shockoe idea keeps popping up because it is a good idea. The team doesn’t want to be at the Boulevard. Building an urban mixed use development around a new Boulevard Stadium is more a developer boondoggle than a Shockoe Bottom Stadium (plop ballpark and limited development in a small vacant area in middle of an already developed area is flatly cheaper than building a new stadium and a cheesy, fake West Broad Village around it on Boulevard).
As to honoroing history: head shops, exploitative “supper clubs,” and abandonment are a desecration of the history of the Bottom. Vibrancy would honor that history.
Most importantly (all together now): A NEW BALLPARK AND ACCOMPANYING DEVELOPMENT ON THE BOULEVARD WILL COST THE PUBLIC MORE AND BE A GREATER DEVELOPER BOONDOGGLE THAN A BALLPARK IN THE BOTTOM.
Traffic: the Bacon Festival attendance was something like 5 or 6 times more people than maximum attendance for a baseball game.
Ball game traffic and attendence would be the same number of people, and use the same parking decks, as the state employees who park at Franklin, 14th and Main… and would be using the decks at different times than the state employees.
So let me get this straight you all want to build another mini mall on the Bolivard an area that is set up for sport events and has absolutly no Foot traffic? How about this why not do the Mall in Shockoe Bottom and provide the many Residents a place to shop? The Ballpark and accompained development they planned to do will do better on Bolvard and won’t compete with what is already in place in Shockoe Bottom. Win/win
“Won’t compete with what is already in place in Shockoe Bottom”?
Bums, abandoned buildings and vacant lots? The stores would also not be able to be open in the day because parking would be non-existent while the downtown workers are parked there. I don’t think this is an option. We get a stadium or we get nothing as I understand it.
First update the roads and highways. Once they’re done, we can put it to another vote.
Are you for or against #ShockoeStadium? Well, one gentleman just might be right on the money. Read more:
I am so incredibly sick and tired of hearing the same worn out, absurd arguments AGAINST a Shockoe stadium. Let’s debunk them one at a time, shall we?
1. There’s no interstate access there, but there’s great interstate access at The Diamond. Oh really? Because last I checked, the Franklin Street Exit southbound and Broad Street exit northbound to 95 are closer to the Shockoe site than the Boulevard exit is to the Diamond. And pardon me if I’m wrong, but aren’t I-195 and I-64 also within about half a mile of the Shockoe site? That’s three interstates, compared to just two at the Diamond.
2. Traffic would be so bad in the Bottom. Oh, ok. And traffic waiting to get to a sold-out game at the Diamond is a total walk in the park, right? That explains why I have to sit on 64 and wait through about 10 light cycles on Boulevard to turn into the Diamond, then. Could it really be worse in the Bottom?
3. There’s no parking in the Bottom! Oh, and there’s plenty at The Diamond? Actually, the lot there holds about 1500 cars. If you’re going to a well-attended game and can’t fit in that lot, good luck. You’re parking at Hardywood and walking a mile. In the Bottom, there are state garages that no doubt would be made available since workers would have gone home by then – and I’m guessing the state wouldn’t object to some extra revenue, right? Not to mention that new parking decks would almost assuredly be built as part of the new project.
4. You can’t build in the Bottom because slaves were traded there 300 years ago! Ok. So, those of you who are passionate about this: Where the hell have you been for the past 300 years? The site is a wasteland now – should it remain this way forever? What would you like us to do, build a huge amusement park so that everyone in the world knows just how racist we used to be here? Look, I appreciate history. It was horrible what happened there. But aside from building a monument or some type of remembrance there, what is realistically going to happen to the site? Right now, it’s a grassy lot that no one sees or knows about. Build a ballpark there, erect a monument to educate the thousands of people who will visit 5 months a year, and you’ve done far more than you could otherwise.
5. (This is my favorite..) But baseball has ALWAYS been at the Diamond. I’m used to it there! Ok. So by that logic, we should never change anything, no matter what? Got it.
6. Don’t make me go to the Bottom – I’ll probably get murdered there! Right. Because most of the violence that takes place in the Bottom now happens around 8 pm in a crowd of 7,500 people. Ok. Actually, Mensas, when people are shot downtown, it happens at 2 am outside a club with 5 people around. Do you truly believe that violent criminals are going to be scoping out the biggest attraction in downtown, just waiting to shoot and kill people as they leave a baseball game? I doubt it.
7. But it floods all the time in the Bottom! Really? I remember a terrible flood during Gaston…What else? There’s a reason they called it a Hundred Year Flood. (I’ll let you guys figure it out.) Also, there’s this thing called architecture. When you hire professionals, they figure out how to mitigate things like rainwater runoff. In case you hadn’t noticed, fields today are built with incredible drainage abilities and can drain more than an inch of rain an hour without issue. The rest of the facility probably will be made out of brick or concrete, and not mud, so I think it would survive a heavy rain. But thanks for your concern.
8. The Boulevard is a better spot for a stadium than the Bottom. Right, because who wouldn’t want to take the family down there to go to a game and then…check out the Greyhound station? I mean, eat at the Bill’s Barbecue across the stre…(oh wait, that closed). I mean, uh, check out the Richmond Department of Public Works facility next door?
Or…maybe if you put it in the Bottom – in a spot that sits between the business district and the revitalized residential growth along the river, between restaurants and bars, people could actually have something to do BEFORE and AFTER the games. Imagine that!
Look – I get it. Some people want the team to remain near The Diamond, and that’s fine. But just say that that’s what you want instead of making up ridiculous and inaccurate arguments about why the Bottom won’t work. Of course it would work.
do not favor it
wow Matthew. You just summed up everything I have been saying – all in one post! So….ditto!!
Vote here: Baseball in the Bottom: Are You Fer it or Agin It
Hey John – I clicked on the link to vote… didn’t see it 🙂
THIS IS FROM BACK IN JUNE, PEOPLE. JUNE!
THe most current baseball discussion is here: /2013/09/08/mayor-said-…