RECENT COMMENTS
Are the Open Carry activists breaking the law?
A reader who has been following the story points out that the recent open carry walks may have been violating laws regarding fire arms and schools.
On both their first walk down Broad Street at the end of August and more recent walk to Creighton, the openly armed activists from The Right to Bear Arms each time passed within 1,000 feet of several area schools. On both occasions, alarmed residents called the police out to intervene.
The armed presence of the activists at these locations may have been a felony.
The NRA describes the relevant portion of Virginia law as such:
“It is unlawful to carry any firearm at any time in any elementary, junior high, or high school, or on such school property or discharge a firearm on school grounds or within 1,000 feet of school property, except as part of the curriculum or other school-sponsored program of any organization permitted by the school. Firearms may be possessed in a vehicle if unloaded and locked in a closed container or vehicle trunk.”
The applicable section of the actual Code of Virginia (as far as I can tell) is not as cut&dry, but leaves room for this interpretation:
§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
The group has another walk planned for this Saturday morning, from Clay and 33rd to the perimeter of Creighton Court.
— ∮∮∮ —
Schools and the area within 1,000 feet, including Creighton Court
— ∮∮∮ —
Schools and the area within 1,000 feet, including East Broad Street
Good research. If this is true, they would really have to zig zag through Church Hill
If that circle for Chimborazo is actually any larger and gets to 33rd and Clay it’s impossible to walk north fro Broad Street without passing through one of these zones. Just wish they would go somewhere else.
How does this law work if you have a gun in your house and live within one of those radii? Seems like a difficult to enforce law.
If anything, the boundaries would be larger than shown according to the letter of the law above.
As it states,
“…buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.”
This would include public parks touching that radius, and the radius would be generated from the edge of the school property, not a point at the center (though I understand the need for simple representation as above).
I think that the whole premise of this activist group is laughable and best simply ignored, but on the other hand I would love to see these guys get arrested if their “legal” walk was to backfire on them.
#3, I am not a lawyer, but I would interpret this law as enforceable within the public domain; i.e. on sidewalks, streets, and public property.
Probably not being enforces because of the potential for it to be struck down. That, along with that map, just begs for litigation. Plus, I wonder how you would know you were within 1000 ft of a school zone? This seems to make sense in a more rural environment, but not in the city. Any case law research to go with?
These guys should be totally arrested. They walked all the walked down e broad from Chimborazo to the bottom their first “freedom walk”. According to this they broke the law several times walking down E broad! I’m sure there is witnesses! These guys should be prosecuted !!
I am not a gun person, but I understand the right to bear arms. I am curious if these gun free zones have ever been tested constitutionally.
I know several cities have enacted gun free laws for the entire city and that have been overturned by the supreme court, yet the cities still try to enforce them.
Evidentially they were violating federal laws also:
The Gun-Free School Zones Act
The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) prohibits any person from knowingly possessing a firearm that has moved in or otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.30 The GFSZA defines “school zone” as: 1) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or 2) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.31
The federal prohibition against possessing a gun in a school zone does not apply, however:
To people licensed by the state or locality to possess the gun.32 This exception applies to many people licensed to possess firearms or to carry concealed firearms; see our summaries on Licensing Gun Owners or Purchasers and Carrying Concealed Weapons for more information about these licensing requirements.
If the firearm is unloaded and “in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle.”33
If the firearm is possessed for use in a program approved by a school, or in accordance with a contract entered into between a school and the individual or an employer of the individual.34
As I read it, it is only illegal to discharge a firearm within 1000 feet of a school.
This little group has been successfully blocked from the RRHA neighborhoods (Crieghton Ct. Was scheduled for Saturday). There is absolutely no need to parade through ANY neighborhood, public place, with rifles and handguns. Please sign and share if you agree with this petition. http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/end-the-deliberately?source=c.fwd&r_by=2055743
The link is to their FB group. Get on there and speak your minds. Open carrying rifles and AKs is NOT a “cause”. With rights come responsibilities – these guys are not being responsible. Yes, I own a gun. Yes, I CC carry when the situation calls for it (like going to my studio at night). NO. I would never open carry a weapon that could kill – especially in front of children.
The link: https://www.facebook.com/righttobeararmsrva?ref=ts&fref=ts
@10…I read it the same way as you do. You can’t have a gun on school property and you can’t fire it within 1000 feet of the school. These guys aren’t doing either. If they’re non-felons just carrying a gun on public property, it’s perfectly legal.
@11 and 13 Lena, thanks for the link to Facebook, and info about RRHA.. Too bad they didn’t get busted for trespassing when they were in Creighton Court in the past. At least now the leader has announced that they’ll stay on Nine Mile Road, and not on the roads inside the RRHA property.
Please go to their page and speak your minds – the one woman on there is going at them hard and logical. We need more of this on their little FB page. https://www.facebook.com/righttobeararmsrva?ref=ts&fref=ts
RRHA is now aware of their intentions and Petersburg needs to be informed as well. http://www.rrha.org/html/trespassing/trespassing.shtml – the 1st Precinct is also aware of their intentions this upcoming Saturday (they didn’t know and we’re happy to be informed by the public).
@Lena and her ilk: I wish they would walk around the various housing court on a continual basis. Would deter a lot of the lowlife from their usual bullshit. (Not referring to all public housing tenants, but bad apples spoil the barrel.). I would much rather see law abiding citizens openly carrying guns. I think the norm in these areas is for criminals to conceal their weapons.
I don’t necessarily support these guys & the way they are going about being “activists”, but I think trying to get them on this sort of technicality is a bit of a reach.
I wish we could organize and open-carry walk in their neighborhood while they are in ours. See how that goes. I don’t have a gun but we could try swords or something.
@Lee ~ that’s really messed up to say in your part. There are little kids in these neighborhoods. There are bad apples everywhere ~ you could be one of them ~ don’t know. The LAST thing that we need is a group of vigilante citizens walking around with guns thinking that they are law enforcement ~ that’s more dangerous than an actual criminal element because these extremeists are running on fear of their environment. SMH.
@Lena – Yes, there are little kids in these neighborhoods. That’s true. There’s also a lot of poverty, crime, and illegal or unlawful gun violence. Lawful gun ownership can deter that. You are bothered by the fact that they are carrying rifles and you can see them. But the number of people legally (and illegally) carrying firearms is far higher. You likely encounter people who are armed everytime you leave your home. I’ve heard numerous times that about one in three vehicles in Virginia has a firearm in the glove box, and one in five or one in six handbags – legal or otherwise. I think what we don’t see visibly displayed is of more concern than what we do see.
Anyhow, carrying a gun is not some sort of inherent claim or attempt to be law enforcement as you have suggested (and, as far as I am aware, not what this group claims). It is a reasonable means of self defense. If I have understood your views correctly, I sincerely hope that you are never violently attacked by someone physically larger than you are and unable to defend yourself. Your views (again, if I have understood them) would deny you an equalizing force which could save your life.
This isn’t really the venue for this discussion, and I do agree it’s in questionable taste to carry rifles around an urban environment. But again, keep in mind that it’s the handguns, especially the unlawfully contained and concealed ones, that you need to watch out for. Passing more laws won’t just make the
*won’t just make them go away, especially if they were obtained and are being carried or used unlawfully anyway.
Several years ago, while driving down Rte. 5 toward Williamsburg, I drove past a bunch of hunters carrying their rifles back to their trucks. It was so surprising to see all those guns out that I veered off the road and very nearly caused a multi-car accident. Guns are frightening to many of us. Seeing them in our daily lives is unexpected and upsetting to those of us who have experienced some form of abuse or violence. These guys are trying to provoke and we’re giving them just what they want if we continue to engage. They don’t deserve our energy. Let’s call the police when we see them and then just ignore them. They obviously lack in anything of substance or goodness in their lives and likely have limited IQs. They should be pitied.
@Lee ~ I am a gun owner. I am trained. I’ve been carrying for about 15 years now. Open carry simply allows one’s attacker know in advance to disarm you. And yes – I have been attacked by a man, larger and stronger.
Is anyone planning to counter protest on Saturday? This is disgusting
@29, good idea but it’s a bit late to start planning it, and I think it should have some advance planning as to message and focus.
@29, actually after watching a bit of the piece on Channel 6, I think any counter should include some people from places like Creighton, esp. the tenant’s council lady….and people like Michael Paul Williams, although as a journalist he prob. couldn’t join in.
Sorry, I meant to include the link to Channel 6 on my post. http://wtvr.com/2014/10/03/creighton-court-open-carry-rally/
The way I read this is that it’s fine to simply carry a firearm, but not hold or brandish in a manner that threatens someone. Now some would argue they feel threatened just from someone carrying, however, the law doesn’t say that.
@Lena – as I said, not sure I was understanding you or your position entirely. It’s interesting to note that gun ownership by women and concealed carry permits issued to women has markedly increased in the last decade. Don’t quote me on that, but Time recently had a feature on it. Anyway, they noted that women typically favor concealed carry permits and felt uncomfortable around/unhappy about open carry firearms. Interesting.
All I’m saying with the public housing is that incidents like the recent “mob fights” or whatever they’ve been labeled as probably wouldn’t happen with visibly armed people standing watch. Not that this is a viable long term strategy. Sorry, I can be rather sarcastic sometimes.
In any event, I’m comfortable with people who open carry, and many others aren’t. But they have the right or they don’t. Regardless, I think the presence of children matters. Frankly, I know people who have lived in Creighton and Mosby court, and they – and their children – see worse on a regular basis, from the stories they’ve told me. I don’t think what this group is doing is in good taste, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to try to stop them either.
These guys are should definitely be arrested tomorrow:
According to the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990
AND
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921
Their starting point of clay/33rd is 640 ft from Chimborazo elementary tomorrow,.
(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
I just forwarded this to a friend who is a English teacher, here’s his input to the translation of:
“It is unlawful to carry any firearm at any time in any elementary, junior high, or high school, or on such school property or discharge a firearm on school grounds or within 1,000 feet of school property, except as part of the curriculum or other school-sponsored program of any organization permitted by the school. Firearms may be possessed in a vehicle if unloaded and locked in a closed container or vehicle trunk.
Any person with a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun onto school property while in a vehicle to drop off or pick up a child, only if the permit holder remains in the vehicle with the handgun completely concealed”.
It is unlawful to carry any firearm at any time in any elementary, junior high, or high school, or on such school property
or
discharge a firearm on school grounds
or
within 1,000 feet of school property, except as part of the curriculum or other school-sponsored program of any organization permitted by the school. Firearms may be possessed in a vehicle if unloaded and locked in a closed container or vehicle trunk.
YOU CAN NOT DO ANY OF THESE THINGS! Or any combination of the 3.
Since there is a OR not an AND….
I haven’t heard about a counter protest – I think that standing in solidarity against this would be good for the community. I’m sure there will be calls made to the police tomorrow – many may not be aware of this parade :/
Petition: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/end-the-deliberately?source=c.fwd&r_by=2055743
I think that the police need to be called until they are OUT of the community.
@Lena – Isn’t calling the police repeatedly a waste of time and resources, since the police won’t be able to do anything without causing legal headaches. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them address actual crimes, rather than wasting time and resources which have been paid for with your/our tax dollars? I don’t agree with you on this issue, but think you would have a better outcome if you tried to change the law, rather than enforce laws that don’t exist.
This may be the very issue you are trying to address with the petition you’ve referenced, by the way. But suggesting that these demonstrators are a hate group (not here, but in the petition) because they choose to demonstrate in areas with large African American populations seems to undermine the argument…
Ignore them. Just ignore them. What they want more than anything is to upset y’all, so the best way to deflate their hostile little egos is to ignore them.
Unless you want to point out the tiny boy parts for which they’re compensating. ‘Cause, really, that’s mostly what this is about. (Oh, and that they hate Obama and liberals and gay people and stuff like that, but it’s mostly just their teenie-weenies. Really.)
The creator of that petition is addressing those issues. If you want change, you are going to have to be more proactive and do something instead of debating. This discussion is going nowhere. Get out and do something to make your voices heard instead of just challenging people who are on your side. Good luck with whatever you come up with to prevent this from constantly happening in Church Hill.
Let’s see:
1. Group starts walking to draw attention to what they see as efforts to limit their rights to carry/own certain weapons.
2. Community calls them paranoid, nuts, etc
3. Group continues doing it
4. Neighbors call the police and ask them to make the group stop, and in some cases call for locking them up.
I got that right? Everyone in this looks like an idiot. The neighbors have confirmed that yes, the group is probably correct in asserting that many in this country would like to restrict gun ownership. The group has helped contribute to their own self fulfilling prophesy.
What every happened to the days when folks were able to respectfully disagree?
I’m not for locking these guys up, but I do think that what they do is salt in the wound for an area of the city that is plagued by gun violence.
I do see a positive side to their presence though, in that it has made members of the community further define, debate and discuss their feelings about guns in the community. It’s what is at the heart of the subject both in the East End and nationally.
But when a gun goes off in the projects and the projectile happens to hit someone, the neighborhood does dead quiet….”Nobody saw or heard nothing”. Weird isn’t it?
It is weird. The posts on this site referencing shootings in the area seldom get comments. I think it’s because people view it as an endemic and intractable problem, not to mention the guilty parties don’t expose their identities usually, whereas the open carry dudes are outsiders coming into the neighborhood, and they’re identifiable. In any case, it seems to me that their message is being rejected by most people in CH.
As to the gun violence in the projects, where does a practical solution begin? The easy fix is to tear the projects down, but where do those people go and do those with guns from there take their gun culture with them when they move–is the gun problem just transplanted?
@ #51 spacecat
I’m good with the “easy fix”…transplanting the “gun problem” would be a godsend! It’ll just become someone else’s problem…we’ve been dealing with this for as long as I can remember – obviously, there may be no remedy for it. And as a card-carrying NIMBY-ist, I think we’ve got the best option in the “easy fix”. (Half-joking)
It’s pretty clear that “razing” the projects (and transplanting the problems) will not address the cultural crisis; dare I suggest that we keep the projects, and raze the screwed-up culture…oh, but that would be impossible. So, let’s just grin and bear it (the status quo)…urgggh.
Short answer #51, in many cases it would go nowhere. A lot of the issues with the projects are due to the toxic environment that results when you concentrate poverty and have an environment with no successful folks around. If you mix the poor in areas where resources and connections needed are available it can prevent some of this (though not all).
@Spacecat / post 51
It isn’t a problem that is exclusive to the projects. I find bullet casings in places that would surprise you, and gunshots in the alley behind our building (on Chimborazo Blvd) and at a couple of nearby parks and playgrounds are rather common. So… although I’m for tearing down the housing courts and replacing them with inclusive/mixed income housing, not sure it would solve the problem. In any case, the gun violence in the area seems like a far bigger issue than these demonstrators
Holy shit these guys are dead!
http://wtvr.com/2015/03/20/group-known-for-open-carry-marches-in-carytown-die-in-head-on-collision/